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Tuesday, February 22, 2011
 Redistribution vs. Redistribution

Topic: Commentary

One of the major claims/beliefs of conservatives, including genuine middle-class "Tea Party" type conservatives who are genuinely concerned about the state of the American economy, is that "redistribution of income" from income earners to welfare recipients is one of the major causes of stress on the American middle-class.

According to the Heritage Foundation (a major conservative think tank), welfare spending has increased from 0.5% of GDP in 1962 to 4.4% of GDP in 2010. The welfare programs cited by the Heritage Foundation are all clearly redistributive programs. These are food stamp, housing assistance, Medicaid, and income assistance programs.

The Heritage Foundation puts total welfare spending in 2010 at $648 billion.

It is absolutely true that there has been an increase in spending on anti-poverty programs over the past 50 years, and that spending on welfare programs is higher today than it has ever been, and it is absolutely true that these programs constitute "redistribution of income" from income earners to those with less or no incomes, however, this isn't the whole picture of redistribution in America.

If we grant that this $648 billion roughly represents the "forced" redistribution from the haves to the have-nots in America today (surely there is some charity in addition to this spending, plus there are other less direct programs that benefit the poor such as public schools, etc), the next question is, what about redistribution from the have-somes to the have-mores?

The middle-class is definitely getting squeezed in America, but who is doing the most squeezing?

Capital income is also a form of redistribution, which is why it is classified by the IRS as "unearned income". Income from capital constitutes income from dividends, interest, rents, and gains from the sale of capital, i.e. selling a stock for more than what you paid for it.

Ultimately all capital income is a tax on wages. Capital income comes from owning property, not from doing work. The value used to pay capital income has to be produced by work. Without work being done there can be no capital income.

Using a similar time-frame as that of the Heritage Foundation, what we find is that from 1960 to 2010 the portion of national income going to capital has increased from roughly 14% to 24%. The portion of national income going to wages has dropped from 67% in 1960 to 55% in 2010. If we look at the portion of wages going to the bottom 95% of the population what we find is that this has dropped from roughly 62% in 1960 to 44% in 2010. Sounds unbelievable I know, but that's the case. Only about 44% of gross national income in 2010 went to the wages of the bottom 95% of income earners. Even when we add in proprietor's income (income of small business owners) for the bottom 95% that still only adds up to around 52% of gross national income.


source: http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/view/138

Now even if we ignore the wage issue and just focus on capital income alone, what we find is that in 1960 roughly 1.5% of gross national income went to the capital income of the top 5%, however as of 2010 roughly 12% of gross national income went to the capital income of the top 5% of income recipients.

So let's consider this. In 1960 roughly 0.5% of gross national income went to welfare programs for the poor and roughly 1.5% went to the capital income of the rich. Both of these are forms of redistribution from workers.

As of 2010 roughly 4.5% of gross national income went to welfare programs for the poor and roughly 12% went to the capital gains of the rich, and again, both of these are forms of redistribution.

This doesn't even take into consideration disproportionate income gains in the areas of wages and benefits, which I would argue have also been redistributive in relation to executives and other ultra-high income individuals, however there is a problem here of double counting, because a portion of that 4.5% going to welfare programs is actually paid by the rich, and so it isn't actually a direct drag on the middle-class. It is, in effect, a tax on the income that is redistributed from the working-poor and middle-class to the rich, and then redistributed back to the poor. But since welfare programs at the federal level are funded primarily from more progressive income tax, and the top 5% currently pay roughly 60% of federal income taxes, let's attribute 60% of that 4.5% of GNI to the rich, which leaves only 1.8% of middle-class income going to support the poor through federal taxation.

Let's also consider that some portion of the increased capital income of the top 5% in America is a product of redistribution from foreign workers, and thus not directly redistribution from American workers. Let's assume that one third of the capital income of the top 5% of Americans comes from foreign workers, that still puts the redistribution from American workers to rich capital owners at around 8% of gross national income.

So we conclude that somewhere around 1.8% of all income below the 95th percentile is being redistributed toward federal anti-poverty programs, and somewhere between 8% and 12% of income below the 95th percentile is being redistributed in the form of capital income to the top 5% of income receivers. (Note that this likely grossly underestimates the full level of redistribution from the middle-class to the rich since it doesn't take into account inflated fringe benefits and wages that are also partly paid for by underpaying middle-class workers.)

Whether or not you support the concept of capital income or believe in the merits of capital income as a driver of investment in productivity, etc. the fact is that the pie has to be split between wages and capital income, and the fact is that over the past 40 years that pie has been increasingly split in favor of capital, not wages.

We can clearly see the effects of this on compensation in relation to productivity. As productivity has soared, wages for the middle-class have stagnated. This is because the increases in productivity have gone increasingly to capital, executive bonuses, and ultra-high wage receivers, again like executives.


source: http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/view/145

The fact that the income pie is going increasingly to capital isn't a problem in and of itself, in fact this is in many ways a good thing, the problem, however is that virtually all of the capital is owned by the wealthiest 5% of the population, and this is why the net effect is hugely redistributive. If capital ownership were broadly shared, then this effect wouldn't be considered redistributive, but under the current condition of high capital ownership concentration it is.

So if we consider the middle-class worker, the redistributive burden on them to support the poor is a small fraction of the redistributive burden on them to support the rich. In other words, the tax on labor to support the rich is at least 5 or 6 times higher than the tax on labor to support the poor, and this doesn't even take into consideration the burden of side-effects of wealth concentration, like the ways in which the wealthy are able to use their power to undermine the voting interests of the middle-class, etc.


Posted by rationalrevolution.net at 9:29 AM EST | Post Comment | View Comments (85) | Permalink
Updated: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:50 AM EST

Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 6:51 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

If you want socialist redistribution, move to Sweden. 

Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 3:17 PM EST

Name: "tinheart"

Given the state of this country, there are a lot of people that would take up TheMisesKing on his generous offer.

Monday, February 28, 2011 - 1:22 PM EST

Name: "Roy F"

Interestingly, according to a recent poll (http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph), 92% of Americans think the income distribution in the US should be the same as Sweden -- even those who call themselves conservative.  So, no, you, The MisesKing, get the fuck out, not the rest of us.  Go live in your insane libertarian fantasy world, where, ultimately, 1 person would come to own everything on earth, and everyone else would either be his personal slaves or would starve to death.

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 12:47 AM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

Sweden, Norway, Denmark,  Iceland and Finland are shitholes so no thank you.  Keep America red, white and blue.

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 - 6:10 PM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Obviously Mises is unaware that Norway and Iceland also have red, white, and blue flags. 

 On another note, what quantifies shitholiness? Are there any objective criteria other that "not America"?

 Similarly can you explain why socialist is a bad word? Do you know what it means or do use it in the right wing sense of "bad." Remember that huge check Bush II wrote the Financial sectore called TARP. Boy was that some serious socialist redistribution of weath. What about what's happening in Wisconin. Giving huge tax incentives to business while trying to cut the pay of state workers, talk about redistribution. I'm not sure why its capitalism when the money goes from the poor to the rich, but its socialism when it goes from the rich to the poor.

Friday, March 4, 2011 - 8:28 AM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

You misunderstand boogerjames, I mean this whole socialism and redistribution and this obsession with income equality is stupid.  Denmark is said to have the highest income equality on Earth, and all of Scandinavia pretty much shares in the socialist systems, and what has it done for them?  NOTHING.  These countries are 2nd class countries in the world, have tiny militaries and no one takes them seriously at all.  I don't want that to happen to America.

 

It's okay to redistribute wealth to the rich if it creates jobs.

Friday, March 4, 2011 - 2:51 PM EST

Name: "PrinceOfThieves"

At least Sweden, Denmark et al spend money on education, something you clearly missed out on, TheMisesKing. Because then you would know that none of those countries have a populationthat exceeds 10 million. So it would simply be impossible for them to sustain a giant military that can project power all over the world. Even if they wanted such a thing.

 What good is a job if all you are earning is going to the rich? Isn't that what slavery is?

Friday, March 4, 2011 - 2:53 PM EST

Name: "PrinceOfThieves"

Oh, and by the way, guess which country did have a giant military and was taken very seriously indeed. The Soviet Union - that capitalist paradise.

Friday, March 4, 2011 - 3:49 PM EST

Name: "anonymous"

"Denmark is said to have the highest income equality on Earth, and all of Scandinavia pretty much shares in the socialist systems, and what has it done for them?  NOTHING."

 Hmmm, lets hypothesize what sort of things might be affected by fewer broke ass folks. How about crimes rates?  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Oh look: USA  5 per 100,000, Denmark 1 per 100,000. 80% lower homicide rate.

 If you don't think homicides are an important indicator, how about just straight up robberies?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita

USA 1.38 per 1,000, Denmark .58 per 1,000. 60% lower robbery rate. 

How about infant mortality, commonly used as a measurment of health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

USA 6.3 per 1,000, Denmark 4.4 per 1,000. 30% lower infant mortality rate. 

Sorry Mises, reality is misaligned with your delusion.

 

Friday, March 4, 2011 - 3:51 PM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Previous comment by "anonymous" was actually by me. Anyone else hate this stupid pop-up box for typing comments

Saturday, March 5, 2011 - 1:05 PM EST

Name: "Ismail"

Denmark, Norway and Sweden "aren't taken seriously"? Are you 14 years old?

 

The USSR had a giant military, under Stalin no less. The DPRK (aka North Korea) today is seen as a very militarized society. The USSR obviously was able to use its military to influence policy, while the DPRK used its own military to train various African armies in the 1970's and 80's. What does having a military have to do with ANYTHING?

Saturday, March 5, 2011 - 6:06 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510

The Myth of the Scandinavian Model. 

Scandinavia and the Nordic Model, Swedish welfare, the prevelant socialist attitudes today are decadant and terrible.  Their societies are materialist, as in they promote philosophical materialism over spirituality, full of atheist and communist, communist parties have siginificant power there, the ideas of the prolaterient is what is the state ideology there, it's full of homosexuals, just plain bad.

"are you 14 years old?"

How are they taken seriously?  How about you tell me?

"USSR, North Korea"

Yeah but communism SUCKS at doing anything, military included.  Not a valid point.  Communism=stupid and oppresive.  Scandinavia and the EU are the new USSR.

Saturday, March 5, 2011 - 6:51 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

"a friendly European country (commentators read this as Sweden)... has a tremendous record for socialistic operation, following a socialistic philosophy, and the record shows that their rate of suicide has gone up almost unbelievably and I think they were almost the lowest nation in the world for that. Now they have more than twice our rate. Drunkenness has gone up. Lack of ambition is discernible on all sides."


Dwight D Eisenhower

Saturday, March 5, 2011 - 8:02 PM EST

Name: "Defenderoffreedom"
Home Page: http://mises.org/

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/5616.aspx

http://socialismdoesntwork.com/denmark-is-no-proof-that-socialism-is-good/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/950515/posts

Denmark and Sweden suck ass.

Saturday, March 5, 2011 - 9:28 PM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Mises, 

Still don't know why I should take socialsm and communism as  given "bad" things. And don't quote Russia at me, because the USSR was about the furthest thing from what Marx orignially invisioned. Also, I quite like athiests and homosexuals, so your above argument really holds no sway with me. Again you just spout these words that you think are bad, withought any thought about why they are bad and you expect me to aggree with you. Come back when you have real arguments and I'll pick those apart. Until then, I'm done arguing with you. 

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 3:43 AM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

You mock us when we say Catholics are not real christians, but you atheist say the USSR was not real communism?  LMFAO!  

I gave plenty of links on why Scandinavia sucks.  How about you go read them?

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 5:19 AM EST

Name: "Ismail"

Denmark and Norway are NATO members, Sweden's Olof Palme (the most "socialist" Prime Minister of Sweden) spied on Swedish Communists on behalf of the US Government. Care to explain why such stalwart "commie" countries as those mentioned would join NATO or spy on domestic communists?

 

If you're going to mention homosexuality, then the USSR regarded homosexuals as a result of feudal and bourgeois "degeneracy" and Lenin once criticized Freud for having an "obsession" with sex theories. See: http://www.mcg-j.org/english/e-theory/lenin/Lenin-4.html

Also saying "oh, well, communism sucks at military matters" is irrelevant. At any rate the USSR did pretty well when up against viciously anti-communist Finland during the Winter War (the USSR was able to get its original demands agreed to) and Continuation War, when the Finnish leader Ryti called Hitler a "genius" and the head honcho of Finland, Mannerheim (who massacred somewhere over a few thousand men, women and children in his fight against communists in 1918) made Finland practically subservient to Nazi Germany. Not to mention the USSR marching onto Berlin. Not to mention Soviet military aid to the Second Spanish Republic which saved Madrid from falling early on in the civil war.

 

My point was that the USSR and DPRK have huge militaries. That in itself means nothing. Andorra has a higher life expectancy than the USA and it isn't a feared military power.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 8:21 AM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

About NATO, I'm sure it was just out of fear.  After all the Warsaw Pact was a rival, not ideological enemies.  Are you seriously arguing they are not socialist countries?  They themselves say that.  Look at all the Scandinavian countries and the major parties are socialist, communist and green parties.

Olaf Palme was a socialist who attacked our war in Vietnam and was a personal friend of Fidel Castro, they even painted a giant mural of him in Cuba!  Relations were cut off with Sweden during this time, no surprise the Communist Party had a lot of seats in the Swedish Parliament at the time, it still has quite a number.  You don't know your history.

As for homosexuality, I'm not talking about the Soviet Union am I?  I'm talking about Scandinavia, stop trying to swift the subject.  There is no place more tolerant of homosexuality than Scandinavia, except maybe the Netherlands.  Its effects have been disasterous, especially when it comes to AIDS.  It also has destroyed the moral fabric of society there.

As for Finland, wow, you're telling me about some lameass Scandinavian country that I just showed are pathetic being easily taken over by the Soviet Union.  No wonder its a socialist shithole.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 8:23 AM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

It's funny you bring up Olaf Palme, whos beloved in Scandinavia, and there's loads of conspiracy theories surrounding his assasination, and he's often times seen as a martyr for worldwide socialism!  LOL, idiot.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 8:28 AM EST

Name: "Defenderoffreedom"

Olof Palme was a damn communist who financially and materially aided the PLO, and the FSLN in El Salvador, groups that murdered american soldiers, and was a major ally to Castro.  He is proof of Swedens Socialism, not against it.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 9:51 AM EST

Name: "Ismail"

So what? I said Palme was the most "socialistic" of the Swedish Prime Ministers, yet he still spied on Swedish communists. Considering you seem to be the type to view "socialists" (lameasses like Lula in Brazil or Dos Santos in Angola) as practically the same as communists, it'd be nice to explain to me why Palme did this if Sweden was a country controlled by such extreme leftists.

 

Also what is the "FSLN in El Salvador"? Did the FSLN in Nicaragua have a branch in El Salvador that I was not aware of? This reminds me, the FSLN banned strikes and did its best to appease Nicaraguan businessmen and international corporations. For this it was criticized by actual Communists, like the MAP-ML. Today Ortega coalitions with ex-Contras. Some "socialist" he was.

 

Also who sees Olof Palme as a "martyr for worldwide socialism"? Take Zimbabwe, where Mugabe was once an avowed "Marxist-Leninist." The opposition to ZANU (which claims to be "socialist") is the MDC, which is a member of the so-called "Socialist International." What do you make of this situation?

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 9:52 AM EST

Name: "Ismail"

While we're at it, Pierre Trudeau was on pretty warm terms with Fidel Castro too. He also had people kick down the doors of Québec residents to fight leftists. Are you going to tell me that Trudeau was a communist too?

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 10:01 AM EST

Name: "Ismail"

I must concur with what someone said above, this comment system is pretty bad.

 

To reply to "TheMisesKing," what "fear" would Norway and Denmark have if they were "socialist" countries? What were "socialists" doing in NATO? I know both Norwegian and Swedish communists. Palme spied on communists. Would you like me to get sources? If you'd like I can ask said Norwegian communist about domestic affairs, too.

As for homosexuality, it has nothing to do with socialism unless you believe that groups such as "GOProud" are secret communist fronts. You aren't likely to find many gay-friendly socialists/communists in Russia, for instance. Also how has it "destroyed the moral fabric" of Sweden? If homosexuality itself causes the "destruction" of the "moral fabric" of a country, then the USSR must have been pretty well off morally. Would you agree?

Also Finland is not "socialist" and most actual people from Sweden, Norway and Denmark don't really see Finland as "scandinavian." Name some prominent Finnish socialists/communists involved with the government.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 11:37 AM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

It seems that americans have quite odd views on what Scandinavia is like. Last time I checked, I do not live in a "shithole"... neither do I live in a socialist society. I live in a social-democratic one.

Accusing Olof Palme of being a communist is ridicilous. He was a left-wing social-democrat, or old school social-democrat if you like. Yes, he opposed the Vietnam Invasion, but he was also assassinated by right-wing loonies. Sweden has never been part of NATO, so why should they support the USA?

Communist Parties do not wield significant influence in Norway. The Norwegian Communist Party gets about 0.2% in national elections, it reaches only 1% in the North. Communism is only really popular in Finnmark, the area that actually neighboured the USSR. Not really that odd, considering that the USSR actually liberated the North to great cost of their own soldiers. Red, the largest communistic/revolutionary socialist party in Norway, gets around 1.3% in national elections. The major of a single town is from the Red party, and they are only really popular in the two largest cities and in the North.

As for how the government has some soldiaric policies, like our extensive social security, I don't see how that is a bad thing? Most people support welfare to some extent, well except the very wealthy. But this is a democracy, and that means we shouldn't let the upper 1% income bracket decide everything. We have an extremely low unemployment (2-3%), high wages, strong Trade Unions, a very high standard of living, illiteracy has been eliminated, extensive national healthcare (except the dental, which is private) and very low crime. I don't see how this qualifies us to be a "shithole".

And where did you get that the scandinavian countries are not taken seriously? We wield extensive "soft power", and Norway is responsible for negotiations between the Tamils and the Sri Lankan government (among other things). No, we do not wield the military power of the US of A. But then again, the population of Norway is 4.7 million. Danish is a little over 5 million, and Swedish 9 million. We really don't have the population to have an extensive military, and why should we? Our military forces is literally translated as "The Defence" anyway. Our 1 year National Service means that a very large % of people have basic military training. Not very good for attacking randon middle eastern countries for oil, but it did come in handy during WW2. Oh, and at that time we received nearly only aid from the USSR and somewhat from Britain. A shame we paid the USSR back by joining NATO.

Now, some of your "criticism" is true. There are a number of irreligious people in Scandinavia, few atheists though. Most just don't give a crap about religion. Although, I don't see how this is  a bad thing. As for homosexuality... I don't think it is more homosexuals here than in the US? I know two personally, nice guys. I have not yet received AIDs through some magical homosexual fairy due to their presence.

While I would prefer a genuinely socialist country, ie worker's control of the means of production, at least the Scandinavian Social-Democratic system is infinitely preferable to the american one. We don't need to jail over 1% of our population, we don't need to see people live in misery due to a failure of society to provide for the poorest and we don't have to see our lives ruined if we lose our job.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 2:10 PM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Red Norwegian. - Nice post. Although you did take Mises' bait about gays and atheists. Let me just say that the % of people who are gay or atheist says nothing about a county. The only people who think gays and athiests are bad are bigots like Mises. I would be perfectly happy to live in a country with a huge athiest gay majority. I am an atheist so that doesn't bother me, and more gays means less competition for the ladies.

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 2:16 PM EST

Name: "anonymous"

Mises said, "Its effects have been disasterous, especially when it comes to AIDS."

Never one to take Mises at his word (he strikes me as one of those "liars for Jesus" types) I decided to look up the % of people with AIDS in given countries. Needless to say, reality proves Mises wrong again.

% population with AIDS

USA 0.6%

Denmark 0.2%

Sweden 0.1%

Norway 0.1%

Finland 0.1%

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate 

Sunday, March 6, 2011 - 8:35 PM EST

Name: "ProgressiveAudio"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/progressivevideos

Red Norweigan, it's good to see an actual Scandinavian on here to give their perspective.  I was under the impression though that the Socialist Left Party was in power there, I think in coalition, isn't that a far left party, just not a communist party?  I think it was a communist party once.  I try to follow European politics as much as I can but it's hard for me oftentimes.  Thanks for coming on here.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 5:21 AM EST

Name: "anonymous"

Yes, the Socialist Left Party is a junior member of the Red-Green Coalition (led by the Worker's Party, with the Centre Party as another junior member. I wouldn't call them communist though. It was created in 1975 (roundabout), when the Socialistic Electorial Alliance decided to form a united party after receiving a little over 10% in the election. The Socialistic Electorial Alliance consisted of the Socialist People's Party, Democratic Socialists, the Communist Party of Norway and various independent socialists and communists. However, the Communist Party did not take part in the final merger (although a significant number of Communist Party members defected to the Socialist Left Party). Most of the defectees from the Communist Party has later left the Socialist Left Party, after it started to veer significantly to the right and imperialist side of politics.

Nowadays, the Socialist Left Party has taken a significant right-wing shift due to participate in coalition with the Worker's Party (social-democrats) and Centre Party (agrarian social liberals). They advocate for a mixed economy with somewhat more regulation than today, but their key issues is environmentalism and anti-racism not economy. They are, however, the furthest left-wing party currently in parliament (after the Worker's Communist Party/Red Electorial Alliance MP lost his seat in 2005). Their youth organisation is more radical (Socialistic Youth), but it is more along the lines of "hippie radical" than "communist radical".

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 5:51 AM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

The post above was me, by the way.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 5:41 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"


"Also what is the "FSLN in El Salvador"? Did the FSLN in Nicaragua have a branch in El Salvador that I was not aware of? This reminds me, the FSLN banned strikes and did its best to appease Nicaraguan businessmen and international corporations. For this it was criticized by actual Communists, like the MAP-ML. Today Ortega coalitions with ex-Contras. Some "socialist" he was. "

Or FMLN, whatever, I can't remember all these hispanic communist movements stupid abbreviations so excuse me.  I don't know what you're going on about Oretga being a capitalist or something, I think I walked into some communist turf war here LMFAO!  Anyway, here's what one of Ortegas  butt buddies in the UN says about Nicaragua under him (this is from a far left rag):

"AMY GOODMAN: Right now you have this conflict going on where the opposition lawmakers are challenging Ortega and the courts for extending the term of justices, and they have led a major protest outside opposition legislators meeting.

FATHER MIGUEL D’ESCOTO: Yeah, yeah, it’s very typical. And of course, it’s not only the opposition; it’s the United States with the opposition.

What is happening in Nicaragua? The term of some of the magistrates in the court has ended. You cannot paralyze the country. You have to have the General Assembly. Our Parliament has the obligation to name the new judges. This is their right and their duty. They want to paralyze the country. And so they are not naming them. And the same goes—

AMY GOODMAN: Who is they?

FATHER MIGUEL D’ESCOTO: The legislators. They have a majority. The opposition, that is very much in coordination with the United States embassy in Washington, so they have said, OK, we’re going to bring this country to a halt by not naming members to the Supreme Court and also magistrates to the Supreme Electoral Council. But there’s a part of the Constitution that says that the president is in charge to make sure that the country moves. And he has said, “We are not taking away your right to name them, but if you fail to do your duty, I will have to put out this decree that the ones that were elected are going to continue until you elect the new ones, because we’re not going to close shop.” The [inaudible] goes down.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think President Ortega will try to extend his own term?

FATHER MIGUEL D’ESCOTO: Will try to extend—I don’t know if he will try, but the people would like for him to extend it. And I certainly would like for him to extend his term.

AMY GOODMAN: Because?

FATHER MIGUEL D’ESCOTO: Because this is not a government like in the United States, where it doesn’t really matter, or like in England, where it doesn’t matter whether you have Thatcher or Tony Blair, one being Conservative, the other Labor—six of one and half a dozen of the other. We, in many countries in Latin America, are in revolution—that is to say, in transformation. And we need this kind of guidance. And the people want it.

AMY GOODMAN: There’s a piece on the Washington Post website that calls the Ortega government a leftist “thugocracy.” What’s your response to that?

FATHER MIGUEL D’ESCOTO: Well, yeah, that’s, again, the United States. Our Lord used to say, “By their fruits, you shall know them.” So, see what is happening in Nicaragua, and then judge. But they will always be calling names.

And they started a campaign, for example, that I was against Jewish people and that I should be killed. It’s in the internet. And I’m not against Jewish people. In fact, I have great love for Jewish people. And as a Christian, I’m a follower of Jesus, who was a Jew. But being a Jew is one thing, and being a Zionist outreach of the empire is something else. "

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/26/the_united_nations_is_beyond_reformit

He goes on to make fun of the United States and calls us a sick society, like all commies do.  Little shits.

"Also who sees Olof Palme as a "martyr for worldwide socialism"? "

Socialist.

"Take Zimbabwe, where Mugabe was once an avowed "Marxist-Leninist." The opposition to ZANU (which claims to be "socialist") is the MDC, which is a member of the so-called "Socialist International." What do you make of this situation? "

What does this have to do with anything?  Rhodesia was a democracy until the communist took it over, now their currency is only fit for wiping your ass.

"As for homosexuality, it has nothing to do with socialism unless you believe that groups such as "GOProud" are secret communist fronts."

sigh...you're so deluded.

"You aren't likely to find many gay-friendly socialists/communists in Russia, for instance."

I see fag parades there all the time, sponsered by leftist and the communist party, which still exist there and has many seats in their parliament.  You're totally misinformed.  The most left wing countries on Earth, Scandinavia being the obvious example, are pro gay with gay marriage and gay adoptions, even gays in the military!

"While we're at it, Pierre Trudeau was on pretty warm terms with Fidel Castro too. He also had people kick down the doors of Québec residents to fight leftists. Are you going to tell me that Trudeau was a communist too? "

Uh..here's what I found about him: Trudeau began his political career campaigning for socialist ideals, but he eventually joined the Liberal Party when he entered federal politics in the 1960s.

Sounds like a commie to me.  Canada is a socialist country.

"Also Finland is not "socialist" and most actual people from Sweden, Norway and Denmark don't really see Finland as "scandinavian." Name some prominent Finnish socialists/communists involved with the government. "

Yeah, whatever, I see a party called the "Left Alliance" has major power in Finland.  Everything there is under the control of unions, that's communism.  Even this Norweigan guy who tried to disprove the nation of his country being the prolateriant peoples republic said theres high unionization there, guess what, that's communism and it's not good.

"To reply to "TheMisesKing," what "fear" would Norway and Denmark have if they were "socialist" countries? What were "socialists" doing in NATO?"

Huh?  What do you mean?  Fear?  I'm not sure what you're referring too.

As for NATO, they joined because they feared the United States reprisal.   Simple as that.

"If homosexuality itself causes the "destruction" of the "moral fabric" of a country, then the USSR must have been pretty well off morally. "

Um, no.  Homosexuality was a reason for their downfall, same with the Nazis.

On to Red Norweigan

"It seems that americans have quite odd views on what Scandinavia is like."

It seems like Scandinavia is just an odd place.

You go on and on about how the communist don't have power in Norway, yet the ruling parties are the Labour Party (communist) and Socialist Left (both Socialist and Left are IN THE NAMES!).  It's communist, deal with it.  You should be happy, being away from capitalism and in the communist paradise.  Oh wait, due to low birth rates, a shitty planned economy, and the destruction of the moral fabric of your society, you're going down the shitter.  Guess you gotta move to the US.

"While I would prefer a genuinely socialist country, ie worker's control of the means of production, at least the Scandinavian Social-Democratic system is infinitely preferable to the american one. We don't need to jail over 1% of our population, we don't need to see people live in misery due to a failure of society to provide for the poorest and we don't have to see our lives ruined if we lose our job."

Yeah sounds like communist USSR, not the USA.  Try again.

BoogerJames

"Red Norwegian. - Nice post. Although you did take Mises' bait about gays and atheists. Let me just say that the % of people who are gay or atheist says nothing about a county. The only people who think gays and athiests are bad are bigots like Mises. I would be perfectly happy to live in a country with a huge athiest gay majority. I am an atheist so that doesn't bother me, and more gays means less competition for the ladies. "

LMFAO!  You mean ugly ass bulldykes with buzz cuts?

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 6:53 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/23140.aspx

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 6:56 PM EST

Name: "anonymous"

The Norwegian Worker's Party (literal translation of Det Norske Arbeiderparti, there is no party called Labour Party here) has not been communist since the 1930-1940s. They abandoned planned economy in 1948, in return for the marshall aid. The most communistic thing the Worker's Party do is singing the internationale on May day.

The Socialist Left Party, communist? Don't make me laugh. They currently hold the ministry of education and research, and have granted several private schools the right to establish. When they held the Ministry for Finance and Economy (2005-2009) they didn't execute a SINGLE nationalisation. Half of their voters abandoned them due to them obeying the Worker's Party in everything.

And low birth rate? Last I checked we had 1.98 fertility rate, sure not enough to maintain the current population level but not really a disaster waiting to happen either. The US one is currently 2.06. Not a huge difference there.

I wasn't aware we had a planned economy either. I'll make sure to tell my boss next time I see him. He's really missed that, along with all other norwegian private companies. The closest we ever were to a planned economy was after the 1927 when the Worker's Party held power for three week (they were ousted by the King, after declaring that they intended to abolish private property and institute a Republic). Of course, democracy doesn't matter when private property is on the line, eh?

And moral decay? What exactly do you even mean by that?

And you weren't aware the number of inmates in the US?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

"According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) 7,225,800 people at yearend 2009 were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole — about 3.1% of adults in the U.S. resident population, or 1 in every 32 adults."

"As of June 2009[update], 2,297,400 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails.[2][5] In addition, there were 92,854 held in juvenile facilities as of the 2006 Census of Juveniles in Residential Placement (CJRP), conducted by the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention."

Sounds like the USSR indeed. Oh wait, they had a lower percentage of their population in jail or labour camp than the US has now. Huh.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 6:57 PM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

Ah, forgot to add name again.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:00 PM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

Also, I must apologise for a factual statement above. It wasn't the King that ousted the Worker's Party government in 1927, but the Right Party (conservatives) despite having less votes.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:07 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

Glad I caught you commie.  

 - Moral decay?  I mean your complete tolerance for homosexuality, no child disopline, no death penalty, people can murder and rape there and get off with a free lunch, everyone feels entitled to everything, you got your single payer insurance health care (fucking assholes like you are inspiring people here to fight for communist handouts like that) which instills a sense of entitlement, get my drift?

 - Yeah tell your boss to move his business here in America where the KGB doesn't monitor him as a potential enemy of the people.  Seriously, almost everything in Norway is state owned, why are you people even arguing against this?  Scandinavias stereotype is one of socialism!  Norway being the most socialist of them all.  

 - Private property is freedom and democracy, one cannot exist without the other.

 - lol you got a king, typical that communist would get used to that, you don't even have a fully elected leader, your leader is a king!!! LMFAO!

 - US prisons?  Yeah because we actually lock up criminals, not give them a free car to run over more people.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:08 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

"And low birth rate? Last I checked we had 1.98 fertility rate, sure not enough to maintain the current population level but not really a disaster waiting to happen either. The US one is currently 2.06. Not a huge difference there."

Native Europeans are dying because of low birth rates, letting muslims take over. Ever heard of a guy named Geert Wilders?  Read up on his stuff.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:09 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

What party do you vote for then, if you seem to hate all the communist parties?  

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:50 PM EST

Name: "anonymous"

The FMLN and FSLN don't simply have "acronyms." In the names of their parties are two distinct persons, Martí and Sandino. As for Ortega, he's banned abortion, something I don't see too many communists in the West calling for, and you still haven't refuted the point that he still worked with ex-Contra leaders in the 1990's, and that even in the 1980's he was suppressing strikes and drawing fire from communists like the MAP-ML.

 

Rhodesia was a "democracy" for whites. Blacks had nothing.

 

The CPRF (which is more nationalistic than communist anyway, but that means little in-re homosexuality) condemns homosexuals. I'd like you to find one example of the CPRF praising homosexuality.

 

Canada isn't a socialist country, nor is Finland. High unionization isn't "communism" (the amount of workers in the US has been declining these past decades, yet apparently the US is becoming more "socialist" according to your types), in East Germany, the USSR, and any other country from Maoist China to the DPRK the trade unions were/are more like extensions of the ruling Communist Party and encourage increased productivity and meeting quotas. They were also run by the Party and/or the State (the line was rather blurred.)

 

Also you'd think that "socialist" Denmark and Norway would align themselves with the Soviets and seek their protection rather than join NATO, with Norway in particular building up quite an army during the Cold War.

 

@ TheMisesKing:

The USSR had less prisoners than the USA currently does. Might want to glance at this: http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/faq/freecoun.html

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:50 PM EST

Name: "Ismail"

Above was by me.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:51 PM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

 - Why should we be intolerant of homosexuality? Two of my friends are homosexuals, and they are nice guys. No child discipline? The only thing I can think you mention is that violence against children is prosectued heavily. Surely, you don't mean parents should be allowed to hit and kick their kids? We do have death penalty, but that is just for high treason during wartime. Communist handouts? People here want public hospitals, and if they don't there are some private ones (sadly). The dental is completely private, which has led to dental problems being crippling to the poor.

 - KGB monitor him as an enemy of the people? Have you ever been within shouting distance of scandinavia? The closest thing we got to a KGB, the Police Security Service, was created to monitor Communists. Now they have expanded to monitor religious extremists and nazis, but communists are still their main focus. And I wonder how he should move his logging business to the United States. "Almost everything in Norway is state-owned?" Now I'm pretty certain you are either A) A troll, B) Deluded or C) Have no clue about conditions in Scandinavia.

- I disagree. Democracy is majority rule. How can the majority rule, if the voice of the wealthy minority goes above the voice of the majority? 

 - I'm a republican, actually. As in, I support a republic non-monarchial form of government. I don't terribly mind the kings we've had so far though, since they have all supported the Labour Movement as a whole. And the king is a symbol, not a leader. He doesn't have any power.

- So, you see nothing wrong with nearly 8 million of your population being criminals? Something in your society fosters it.

- I said, norwegian birth rate is 1.98. Not too different from the american one. And letting muslims take over? Hardly. They make up about 2% of the norwegian population, and in terms of politics they support the Christian People's Party (due to similar views on homosexuals, abortion and welfare as devout muslims. Ie, against homosexuals and abortion and for family welfare).

- I vote for the Communist Party of Norway, and I'm a member. I'm pretty sure I know what communism is, and what it isn't, and Norway most certainly is not communist. Neither is Sweden, Finland and especially not Denmark which has some of the harshest racist policies in the nordic countries. Also, if you drag in Finland don't call it Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Denmark). Finland is a Nordic country (Scandinavia, Finland, Iceland, Faroe Islands).

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 7:57 PM EST

Name: "Ismail"

While we're on the subject of Kings, the Communists in Albania, Romania and Bulgaria abolished their countries' monarchies, not to mention the example of the Russian Empire, whose Tsar was shot on Lenin's orders and the structure replaced by the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist REPUBLIC (which later became a part of the Union of Soviet Socialist REPUBLICS in 1922.)

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 10:18 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

To Red Norweigan:

Okay I was wrong on the state owned enterprises, but I found out in Norway, and apparently in the rest of Europe, companies are forced to give workers "representation" and are held hostage by unions, so pretty much the same thing.

Communist party?  Well you reject the major ones as communist, so do you mean this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_%28Norway%29 

No I don't want kids "hit and kicked" I mean spanked and lashed at if they do something wrong.  Kids in Norway get away with anything they want because if their parents even lay a finger on them, they go to prison.  It's becoming like that here.  I swear, you remove mandatory prayer from school and then child disopline and your society goes straight to hell.

Democracy isn't always majority rule, what you're advocating for is pure democracy and mob rule.  Ever heard of limits and separations of powers and stopping the tyranny of the majority?

Since Norway is never at war, you have no death penalty.  But anyway, you're wrong there.  You've forced me to fact check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Norway How can you have a orderly and secure society?  Answer that please.

Homosexuality cannot be tolerated because it brings about all kinds of diseases, destroys families, breaks parents hearts, human beings were meant to have children obviously, and homosexuals are intolerant, militant people.

If muslims are not taking over Europe, how much Muslims raged across the world threatening to destroy Norway (and Denmark too) over the cartoon fiasco and got support for those actions in Norway?  Norway has muslim politicians who dress as palestinian terrorist in Parliament and praise jihad.  That's what I've read.  I recommend you read up on Geert Wilders.

How is Denmark "racist?"  It's so tolerant of homosexuality and alternative lifestyles, and atheism, I don't see why it would be racist.

 

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 11:13 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"


To Imsil:

"As for Ortega, he's banned abortion"

Eh?  I looked it up, he simply banned abortion on demand, giving only the state power to abort.  Now I'm against abortion but I know that's not banning abortion, just giving the state more power.

"you still haven't refuted the point that he still worked with ex-Contra leaders in the 1990's"

I guess he was tired of fighting and made deals with his enemies so his country wouldn't be completely torn up?   The contras were freedom fighters fighting for democracy, and instead of face total defeat, Ortega made democratic concessions.  Simple as that.  20 years later he comes back to power with an iron fist, but now the democratic elements have enough capital to fight him politically, no longer violently.

"the amount of workers in the US has been declining these past decades, yet apparently the US is becoming more "socialist" according to your types"

Yes, under Obama.  Some states are even considering universal health care, which really means big brother is knocking on our door.  I'm not saying the United States is immune to socialism, we've just been the best at fighting it off.  Unfortunately our idiot population voted for it in 2008.

"Also you'd think that "socialist" Denmark and Norway would align themselves with the Soviets and seek their protection rather than join NATO, with Norway in particular building up quite an army during the Cold War."

LOL quite an army?  How?  

"The USSR had less prisoners than the USA currently does. Might want to glance at this: http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/faq/freecoun.html"

So what?  we just deter crime better.

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 11:15 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

"I'm a republican, actually. As in, I support a republic non-monarchial form of government. I don't terribly mind the kings we've had so far though, since they have all supported the Labour Movement as a whole. And the king is a symbol, not a leader. He doesn't have any power."

You don't mind having an unelected leader?  And I looked this guy up, he's your commander in chief.  No power my foot.  

 

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 5:21 AM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

- Held hostage by unions? Well, companies are forced to re-negotiate contracts once a year, with both the union and any un-unionised workers. If the negotiations come to a stand-still, then a representative from the state is to make a compromise ultimatum. If that is rejected, then strike action and lockouts are legal. I don't see how that is a hostage situation, hell it is more crippling to unions that it is illegal to strike until the ultimatum from the state have come.

- No, I mean the Communist Party of Norway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_party_of_norway

- What the hell has mandatory school prayers to do with discipline? There are some private religious schools that practice it, but religion has no place in the public. And children can not get away with anything. It is illegal for parents to practice serious physical harm, like with any other human beings. Children aren't their parents' slaves.

- Democracy literally means "rule by the majority". Limits and separations of powers are also limits on democracy.

- Ah, wonder why there was discussion if a norwegian war criminal in Afghanistan should receive the death penalty then. Seems the newspapers haven't catched up with that either. And we can have an orderly and secure society without the government putting a gun to people's heads. Do you support totalitarianism then?

- "homosexuals are intolerant, militant people"? The only one I see who isn't tolerant is homophobes. I've never met a homo- or bisexual who wants discriminatory policies against heterosexuals. I don't see what kind of disease you are talking about that homosexuals seems to bring down, nor how it destroys families. The homosexual people I now seems to have a good relation with their families and parents.

- What norwegian politician have done that? I only know of one openly muslim MP, from Left (social-liberal party, more similar to the Democrats than it's name gives impression of). He is a secularist. We do have muslim politicians, but none that support jihad. We do have a christian extremist party that supports holy war though, but they are nonparliamentary. We have seen videos from the US where far-rightists threaten to destroy socialism in NATO (meaning Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium...). We take the muslim threats about as seriously as those.

- Denmark has numerous government policies aimed exclusively at immigrants from Africa (not the white africans though), like having to report to the police thrice a week. Regardless if they have ever commited a crime or not.

- I said quite clearly I'm a republican, and I do mind us being a monarchy. And yeah, the king being commander in chief is entirely symbolic. In military matters, he de facto has no say. Well, he do have a vote in the council of ministers, so there he has some power I guess. Far less than the Prime Minister, or the Speaker of Parliament though. Or the Party Leader of the dominant party (currently the Worker's Party).

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 8:00 AM EST

Name: "Ismail"

I think "Red Norwegian" can discuss the Army in the Cold War bit. As for Ortega, again, you don't really expect Communists to enter coalitions with their most hated and openly anti-communist enemies.

Also how does the US "deter crime better"? Are you saying the USSR was a land of crime or something?

I have another question. Why don't these "commies" (Trudeau, Palme, leaders of the Scandinavian countries in general, etc.) accept actual Marxian economics? Take a glance at this work: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PoliticalEconomy.pdf

In that work you'll find actual Marxist economic theory. The labor theory of value, surplus-value, use-value and exchange-value, the Marxist definition of "capital," etc. Find me a single leading politician in any Scandinavian country today, or the USA or Canada, who accepts those views.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 12:09 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

To Red Norwegian:

"Held hostage by unions? Well, companies are forced to re-negotiate contracts once a year, with both the union and any un-unionised workers. If the negotiations come to a stand-still, then a representative from the state is to make a compromise ultimatum. If that is rejected, then strike action and lockouts are legal. I don't see how that is a hostage situation, hell it is more crippling to unions that it is illegal to strike until the ultimatum from the state have come."

Since the unions are favored by the state, that makes it more of a hostage situation, am I right?  I was under the impression European countries had "co-determination" and such, which is essentially forcing democracy into the workplace.  Europe is also home to the co-operatives, which are a terrible thing.  What do you say to this?

"- What the hell has mandatory school prayers to do with discipline? There are some private religious schools that practice it, but religion has no place in the public. And children can not get away with anything. It is illegal for parents to practice serious physical harm, like with any other human beings. Children aren't their parents' slaves."

Sorry, I was referring to the situation in the US, I don't know about it in Norway.  I'm assuming by your comment there's no mandatory prayer there either, obviously since it's an atheist state.  Here in the US, in the 1960s, stupid atheist got the supreme court to ban mandatory prayer in public schools since it violated the first admendment they said.  Now see the society we live in.  Connect the dots.

I never advocated physical harm, I said spankings, and being yelled at, even some taunting.  It's what my parents did.  Kids basically are slaves, you feed them, clothe them, they are yours, right?

"- Democracy literally means "rule by the majority". Limits and separations of powers are also limits on democracy."

Yeah, limits on a mobbish democracy.  You don't want the majority to just say what they want all the time, even if it comes at the expense of the minority?

"- No, I mean the Communist Party of Norway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_party_of_norway"

Damn, so many different communist parties there I can't keep track :p

"- "homosexuals are intolerant, militant people"? The only one I see who isn't tolerant is homophobes. I've never met a homo- or bisexual who wants discriminatory policies against heterosexuals. I don't see what kind of disease you are talking about that homosexuals seems to bring down, nor how it destroys families. The homosexual people I now seems to have a good relation with their families and parents."

Since I have class in a few minutes, I'll list the cases later.  Just look up how homo activist have treated Christians and Mormons and anyone who doesn't support their "rights."  

"- What norwegian politician have done that? I only know of one openly muslim MP, from Left (social-liberal party, more similar to the Democrats than it's name gives impression of). He is a secularist. We do have muslim politicians, but none that support jihad. We do have a christian extremist party that supports holy war though, but they are nonparliamentary. We have seen videos from the US where far-rightists threaten to destroy socialism in NATO (meaning Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium...). We take the muslim threats about as seriously as those."

http://www.israelwhat.com/2010/06/12/how-palestine-lobbyist-hadia-tajik-confuses-humanitarian-need-with-jihadist-thought/

Those "far rightist" are on the good side, :D

"- Denmark has numerous government policies aimed exclusively at immigrants from Africa (not the white africans though), like having to report to the police thrice a week. Regardless if they have ever commited a crime or not."

Uh, that's why I must have read this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12674360

Sounds like a liberal country to me.

"- I said quite clearly I'm a republican, and I do mind us being a monarchy. And yeah, the king being commander in chief is entirely symbolic. In military matters, he de facto has no say. Well, he do have a vote in the council of ministers, so there he has some power I guess. Far less than the Prime Minister, or the Speaker of Parliament though. Or the Party Leader of the dominant party (currently the Worker's Party)."

I'll have to see proof of that.

To Ismail:

"I think "Red Norwegian" can discuss the Army in the Cold War bit."

Okay, he can try.

"As for Ortega, again, you don't really expect Communists to enter coalitions with their most hated and openly anti-communist enemies."

I do when they are forced to by democratic freedom fighters at gun point :D

"Also how does the US "deter crime better"? Are you saying the USSR was a land of crime or something?"

Duh..it was a raging cesspool.  Or did you grow up on Soviet propaganda?

"I have another question. Why don't these "commies" (Trudeau, Palme, leaders of the Scandinavian countries in general, etc.) accept actual Marxian economics? Take a glance at this work: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PoliticalEconomy.pdf   In that work you'll find actual Marxist economic theory. The labor theory of value, surplus-value, use-value and exchange-value, the Marxist definition of "capital," etc. Find me a single leading politician in any Scandinavian country today, or the USA or Canada, who accepts those views. "

I will later tonight and get back to you on it.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 12:12 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

Norweigian dude, how about you tell us the real situation of muslims in Norway then, according to you I'm wrong.

 

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/PAKISTAN-NORWAY-IS_1184113x.jpg

 

This isn't it?

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 1:57 PM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

- Unions are not favored by the state anymore. Most of the compromises veer towards employer, and Union demands for less work hours have gone unheeded for thirty years now. And why are co-operatives a terrible thing? The largest retail in Norway is a Coop (well... 1900 coops, united into one). Although, in day-to-day management it is run like a private business (mostly, profit is still alloced to owners... about 50% of the population, and the majority of families). And what is wrong with democracy in the workplace?

- No, there is no mandatory school prayers here. Norway is mostly secular (although, we do have a State Church and Lutheran Evangelism is our state religion, sadly). There is church attendance during easter, christmas and end of school year, but that is voluntary. And I thought the USA was founded on freedom of religion and non-religion?

- Kids are slaves now? And I don't know of any laws against taunting here. Hell, about half of my teachers during youth school ripped on the students. My english teacher said once "Those who lack intelligence, must make it up in dedication. You have neither." to one of my classmates. Spanking is not really illegal here either, at least no one has gotten punished for it. Parents HAVE been arrested for beating their kids though.

- "Many different communist parties"? There are two, plus a few communist groups that boicots elections.

- So then all homosexuals are intolerant and militant? Hell, I've heard about that Westboro Baptist Church. Obviously, all christians blame homosexuality for the US' relative decline and for soldiers getting killed. And shows up at funerals to harass the mourners.

- Oh, a palestina scarf. Those are dime a dozen here. I thought you meant some MP had dressed in Hamas militant outfits. Most norwegians supports palestine (Fatah, not Hamas).

- That kind of thing is pretty endemic in Denmark. They are the most institutionally racist of the Scandinavian countries, although probably less racist than the USA.

- Proof of the king not having much in the way of power? Check our history. Not once have he had any say in important matters since 1905.

- As for the army during the Cold War, it was expanded. National Conscription and such (all able-bodied men), although Norwegian military strategy after we joined NATO was essentially to hold our country for 3 days (the time estimated for British forces to aid us). Our military was pretty much built around the Home Guard (militias). A % of men in an area had to regularily take some weeks off and train in guerrilla warfare (mostly). Now that the Cold War is over, our defence forces have been drastically cut and our National Service is a joke (only a fraction of able-bodied 19 year olds actually gets in).

Of course, our defence during the Cold War had one pretty large flaw. The local population in the north loved the USSR, and in case of war the home guard in the north would probably stay put. Throughout the USSRs existance, there were extensive cultural bonds with Northern Norway. This meant that the military forces stationed in the North all came from the south (the areas furthest away from the USSR had a more sceptical attitude).

 

- I've only ever met one fundamentalist muslim, and I live in the area of Norway with the highest % of muslims (south-east, roughly 5-6%). The only way I knew he was a fundie was that he hated homosexuals and wanted to stone them. His brother had made quite a fuss in the local newspaper about "All good muslims should hate gays" or something like that. The muslims in my area answered with a protest march demanding he to be sent back to Saudi Arabia. Most muslims here are moderates/secularists, and fundamentalist muslims are a minority within a minority here. Most muslims I know are... well normal. Second-generation and so on muslims here tend to adopt the norwegian attitude to religion anyway. Ie, most of them don't care much.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 4:19 PM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Mises said,  "... no death penalty, people can murder and rape there and get off with a free lunch..."

Didn't I just prove to you that there is actually less murders and robberies there (sorry I didn't look up rape, but I'll bet you $10 it's lower than the USA) 

 

Mises said, "Homosexuality cannot be tolerated because it brings about all kinds of diseases, destroys families, breaks parents hearts, human beings were meant to have children obviously, and homosexuals are intolerant, militant people."

Pretty sure I also have proven that the scandinavian/nordic countries (don't really care what you call them) have a lower instance of AIDS, yet from your anecdontes a higher percentage of gays. Some thing tells me controlling the spread of AIDS is about sex education and using condoms, 2 things the conservative right in this country refuses to have anything to do with.

Mises said, "Unfortunately our idiot population voted for [universal health care] in 2008." 

Are these the same idiots that voted for the patriot act, think there were WMDs in Iraq and think that Obama is not a US citizen and/or the antichrist?

Mises said, "Just look up how homo activist have treated Christians and Mormons and anyone who doesn't support their 'rights.'"

Homo (sic) activists treat christians and mormons with disprespect because christians and mormons are activally trying to keep homosexuals from having the sames rights that those christians and mormons have. No matter what you think, the USA is not a "Christian Nation" (see 1st amendment for reference). Therefore, you cannot (well you can, I'm aguing should not) legally discriminate againsts people based on your religous beleifs when they don't share those same beleifs. No matter how bad you think homos are because of what your bible says, you can't descrimate against them unless you have a purely securlar reason. Interestingly enough the prohibit against homosexuality in the bible is in Leviticus 18, which lists out all the people you are not allowed to have sex with. This follows the first few chapters, which have to do with the proper sequence of steps to make blood sacrifices to god.

"And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation." -Leviticus 4:7 

I'm curious as to when was the last time your priest slaughtered a bull and spilled its blood at the door of the tabernacle. 

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 5:10 PM EST

Name: "Durandal"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/Progressiveaudio

If that's true about Denmark, then it's loads more racist than the USA.  The USA is probably the least racist country on Earth, institutionally, maybe Canada is less, but the US removed most of its white preference immigration policies in the 60s.  Only now are those policies beginning to creep up again.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 5:15 PM EST

Name: "Ismail"

If the USSR was a "raging cesspool" of crime then one would have to conclude that post-Soviet Russia is the equivalent of 1990's Somalia. Also this is a rather strange claim to make, considering that the Soviet state was known for its "police state" apparatus abroad.

As for Nicaragua, the Sandinistas weren't forced "at gun point." The Contras weren't even particularly good fighters; to my knowledge they never even held a city at any point during the civil war. They fought a war of attrition which resulted in the Sandinistas implementing a draft as the rebellion became a drain on the economy. Nicaragua already had multi-party election in 1984, and the 1990 election was mostly people fed up with the continuing state of war and voting for Chamorro to get the Contras to declare peace.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 5:26 PM EST

Name: "Durandal"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/progressiveaudio

To TheMisesKing regarding Nicaragua, I thought everyone, even you, would be aware of by now that the Contras were narco terrorist that were half made up of people loyal to the previous dictators and the other half foreign mercenaries that were promised land and money in exchange for a successful coup.  I mean, it was a big scandal, Reagan, Iran-Contra, you know Contra?  It's not just a video game.  I wasn't even alive then and I know all about the incident.

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 7:31 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

To Red Norweigian:


"- As for the army during the Cold War, it was expanded. National Conscription and such (all able-bodied men), although Norwegian military strategy after we joined NATO was essentially to hold our country for 3 days (the time estimated for British forces to aid us). Our military was pretty much built around the Home Guard (militias). A % of men in an area had to regularily take some weeks off and train in guerrilla warfare (mostly). Now that the Cold War is over, our defence forces have been drastically cut and our National Service is a joke (only a fraction of able-bodied 19 year olds actually gets in).

Of course, our defence during the Cold War had one pretty large flaw. The local population in the north loved the USSR, and in case of war the home guard in the north would probably stay put. Throughout the USSRs existance, there were extensive cultural bonds with Northern Norway. This meant that the military forces stationed in the North all came from the south (the areas furthest away from the USSR had a more sceptical attitude)."

So you admit you have an extremely piss poor military and that your country has a sizeable amount of communist.  Finally.  Norway could be invaded by Uruguay.

"- So then all homosexuals are intolerant and militant? "

No, just the vocal ones.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest7-2008nov07,0,3827549.story

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/08/Gay_Activists_Protest_Mormon_Church/

"Hell, I've heard about that Westboro Baptist Church. Obviously, all christians blame homosexuality for the US' relative decline and for soldiers getting killed. And shows up at funerals to harass the mourners."

Nobody takes the Westboro Baptist Church seriously, not even those fools at the NAACP, which gave Fred Phelps an award in the 80s for defending urban people.

"- Unions are not favored by the state anymore. Most of the compromises veer towards employer, and Union demands for less work hours have gone unheeded for thirty years now."

Could've fooled me.

"The largest retail in Norway is a Coop (well... 1900 coops, united into one). Although, in day-to-day management it is run like a private business (mostly, profit is still alloced to owners... about 50% of the population, and the majority of families). And what is wrong with democracy in the workplace?"

Coops are a shitty way to manage and run a business, cooperatives are basically communism in the workplace.  Name me one cooperative on the Fortune 500 list and I'll concede my point.  You need a top down, autocratic approach to business to make the most money and be most productive.  The biggest cooperative is in Northern Spain I believe and it's a lazy craphole, honestly what the hell is made in Northern Spain?  It's poor and depressed.  Democracy means everyone gets a vote, in this case anyway, and so people will vote largely to be lazy and not be productive.  

Isn't your coop retail a bad store?

"- No, there is no mandatory school prayers here."

Obviously, your Prime Minister is an admitted out of the closet atheist!

"Norway is mostly secular (although, we do have a State Church and Lutheran Evangelism is our state religion, sadly)."

Are you sure?  This doesn't make sense, how can you have a state church yet non christians in government?

"And I thought the USA was founded on freedom of religion and non-religion?"

It was founded on good christian values though liberals dispute this.  

"Kids are slaves now?"

Pretty much or else they'd have rights.

"And I don't know of any laws against taunting here. Hell, about half of my teachers during youth school ripped on the students. My english teacher said once "Those who lack intelligence, must make it up in dedication. You have neither." to one of my classmates"

In this case, Norway is superior, I'll concede.  Over here a teacher would get fired for that.  You need to build character in children, and belittling them oftentimes works.

"Spanking is not really illegal here either, at least no one has gotten punished for it. Parents HAVE been arrested for beating their kids though."

I didn't say beating them, I said spanking, as in making their ass red.  You have to assert your dominance or they won't obey you.

"- "Many different communist parties"? There are two, plus a few communist groups that boicots elections."

Whatever, I'm still not sold on these socialist parties not being communist.  Even so, this Red party keeps getting higher in the percent according to Wikipedia, a bad sign don't you agree?

"- Proof of the king not having much in the way of power? Check our history. Not once have he had any say in important matters since 1905."

Fine, but why have the king still then?

"- Oh, a palestina scarf. Those are dime a dozen here."

So support of terrorism is common in Norway?  I should have known.  Let me guess, you and your communist buddies were dancing when 9/11 happened.  People in Palestine were.

"I thought you meant some MP had dressed in Hamas militant outfits. "

But she did.  She's a muslim pakistani dressing as an arab terrorist.  You don't see a problem with this?

"Most norwegians supports palestine (Fatah, not Hamas)."

Why?  And what's the difference?

Is Norway financially supporting the PLO and Hamas?  I know Olof Palme did and Sweden probably still does.

"- I've only ever met one fundamentalist muslim, and I live in the area of Norway with the highest % of muslims (south-east, roughly 5-6%). The only way I knew he was a fundie was that he hated homosexuals and wanted to stone them. His brother had made quite a fuss in the local newspaper about "All good muslims should hate gays" or something like that. The muslims in my area answered with a protest march demanding he to be sent back to Saudi Arabia. Most muslims here are moderates/secularists, and fundamentalist muslims are a minority within a minority here. Most muslims I know are... well normal. Second-generation and so on muslims here tend to adopt the norwegian attitude to religion anyway. Ie, most of them don't care much."

I've asked scandinavians in the past few days about this, and apparently muslims are growing fast in number in Norway due to higher birth rates, are being granted their own private schools and even have sent letters to politicians exerting their dominance.  I think you deny what's in front of your own eyes.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1642337/posts



"- Ah, wonder why there was discussion if a norwegian war criminal in Afghanistan should receive the death penalty then. Seems the newspapers haven't catched up with that either. And we can have an orderly and secure society without the government putting a gun to people's heads. Do you support totalitarianism then?"

Well everyone else says you guys have abolished the death penalty.  And I'm an authoritarian, not a totalitarian.  I think if we have public executions or perhaps corporal punishment, we'd be a safer society.


To Ismail:


"If the USSR was a "raging cesspool" of crime then one would have to conclude that post-Soviet Russia is the equivalent of 1990's Somalia. Also this is a rather strange claim to make, considering that the Soviet state was known for its "police state" apparatus abroad."

Are you disputing that the USSR was a craphole?  Police states are pieces of crap, or do you like that kind of oppression?

"As for Nicaragua, the Sandinistas weren't forced "at gun point." The Contras weren't even particularly good fighters; to my knowledge they never even held a city at any point during the civil war. They fought a war of attrition which resulted in the Sandinistas implementing a draft as the rebellion became a drain on the economy. Nicaragua already had multi-party election in 1984, and the 1990 election was mostly people fed up with the continuing state of war and voting for Chamorro to get the Contras to declare peace. "

They were democratic rebels who were able to successfully hold back the Sandinistas and force free and fair elections in the 1990s.  The communist didn't make a resurenge until recently.  I challenge you to dispute this.

To Durandal:


"To TheMisesKing regarding Nicaragua, I thought everyone, even you, would be aware of by now that the Contras were narco terrorist that were half made up of people loyal to the previous dictators and the other half foreign mercenaries that were promised land and money in exchange for a successful coup.  I mean, it was a big scandal, Reagan, Iran-Contra, you know Contra?  It's not just a video game.  I wasn't even alive then and I know all about the incident. "

As Fred Thompson said, that's a left-wing myth.  

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 8:57 PM EST

Name: "Ismail"

The USSR had less prisoners than the US did in the 1980's, and you said that "we deter crime better." Yet the USSR was apparently a "craphole." So either the USSR wasn't as oppressive as commonly perceived (for there to be less prisoners) or you don't know what you're talking about. Most of Russia has gotten worse since the USSR collapsed, and this is especially true for most other former Union Republics outside of the Baltics.

The 1984 Nicaraguan election was considered acceptable by pretty much everyone except the US Government.

Wednesday, March 9, 2011 - 8:16 AM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

To TheMisesKing: 

- At the time, the population of Norway was 3 million, or half of the population of Moscow. If the USSR invaded (for some weird reason, NATO is pretty much a giant organisation of conspiracy theorists) the best we could do was hold the line. And we could be invaded by Uruguay, but I doupt they'd get far. In times of invasion, Norway can mobilise 2 million troops with basic combat training (40% of our population). In emergency times, all able-bodied men from the age of 16 to 45 can be drafted (it is in our constitution). I wouldn't call our military "piss-poor" when looking at size. And we had a sizeable number of communists. At the outbreak of the Cold War, the Communist Party had 16% support in polls (concentrated in the cities and mining areas, as well as the north).

- So, a few homosexuals protest against religious fundamentalism. That obviously means they are all evil, militant and intolerant. Again, if you base your view on homosexuals off a minority, then your view on Christians should be based on the Westboro Baptist Church or the Ku Klux Klan, they do after all get a lot of media coverage.

- The main Union in Norway (850 000 members, 18% of the total population) are mostly under the heel of the Labour Party (mostly, the Communist Party and Red both enjoys a disproportinate support among union members). They are pretty tame during negotiations, although the public workers took strike action not too long ago (and the Police Union, but they are not part of the main Union).

- No, the Coops are pretty good. Much cheaper than the private stores, and the workers gets a much better salary as well. Not to mention the numerous discounts for families who have part-ownership (which is about 90%-95% of the people who shop there). And as far as I know, the Fortune 500 list is american corporations only? By definition, a coop wouldn't get there nor matter revenue. Not that revenue is the first mission of a good coop.

- Yes, the prime minister is an atheist. So? The last prime minister was a priest.

- Because the state church doesn't wield any power over secular politics? Not to mention, only about 20% of norwegians take religion seriously according to latest statistics. Only reason the church has a high membership, is that you are automatically a member if you were baptised (a tradition followed by secularists as well). It's too much bother to disband membership in the church, so most don't. Not to mention that muslims, jews and buddhists takes religion more seriously than christians here (and within christianity, the catholics are the ones who are most religious).

- Really? I've heard a few of the guys who wrote your constitution were seculars, at least. And yeah, although in our history it's mostly that the christian fundamentalists were mostly the ones who left Norway (a few cults native to norway, only exists in the US, luckily for us).

- Last I checked, children were human beings. And do have rights.

- I don't know about that, my classmate's grades didn't exactly improve. Although, the teacher were entertaining since he never really went all out on a single person and said it with good humour.

- Oh, that. Spanking isn't illegal here (last I checked, at least). It is viewed negatively by most people though.

- A bad sign? No, not really. The Worker's Communist Party/Red Electorial Alliance (what became Red in 2007) had an MP from 1993-1997, and he managed to unveil a lot of corruption and high salaries that the MPs and politicans grabbed to them, and put them to light. Resulted in a lot less corruption, and a general decrease in the politician's bloated salaries. At the time, Erling Folkvord (the communist MP) was deputy leader of the Worker's Communist Party. Red suffered in the last elections, because their leader (Thorstein Dahle) is not very charismatic. They got a new leader, so it will be interesting to see how they'll do (the latest polls indicate they will get 2 MPs).

- He's a symbol. The king and the rest of the royal family are essentially diplomats. And the kings here have managed to be quite "people-ish" (don't know an adequate word for it in English). Among others, the king before the current one took public transport. Plus, they have generally supported the Labour Movement (trade unions, socialist parties) as much (or in cases, more) than they support the conservatives and liberals. The norwegian left have... a complicated relationship with the monarchy. General opinion is that the monarchy should go, but the current king be granted a generous pension.

- Not really. People were generally horrified by the plane crashes. They were also generally horrified by the invasions and killing of Afghani and Iraqi civilians.

- Not really, no. Most people here support Palestine (ironically, only the christian party consequently supports Israel). Why shouldn't she be allowed to wear a Palestina scarf?

- Are you kidding? Fatah are secular social-democrats/socialists who try their best to act as a government of a country under occupation. Hamas are fundamentalist muslims. Support for Fatah is large here (and, to a lesser extent, the PFLP, Hamas... not so much. The norwegian state and people supports PLO, yes, but not Hamas.

- Yeah the muslim population is increasing, although the Russian Orthodox Church is growing much more rapidly and Catholic to a lesser extent. Yes, there is also a muslim party (which is tiny), and also an immigrant party (but they are secular). And yeah, they have been granted private school (by the bloody hypocrites in Socialist Left, no less). But then, so are christian schools. And that bloody angel school of the Princess. Why make an exception for muslims?

- The last one to be executed were the traitor Quisling after WW2. De facto, death penalty has been abolished since that (but I still thought we had it de jure, but seems like I was wrong). Which is a shame. There are some criminals that only deserve a bullet to the head (child rapists and psychopaths), although public executions are just to scare the population into submission and should be opposed.

 

Also, you seem to flip-flop on your criticism of the USSR. A state can't both be a criminal cess pool, and a police state at the same time. That's like saying immigrants steal jobs at the same time as they leech of unemployment benefits. One cancels out the other.

Wednesday, March 9, 2011 - 9:56 AM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Red Norwegion wrote, " I've heard a few of the guys who wrote your constitution were seculars, at least."

Actually some of the key writers of the declaration where deists, meaning they pronounced belief in a god as a creator, but not a god that directly interfered with the universe on a day to day basis.

Thomas Jefferson veiwed Jesus not as a prophet or as a god, but as a philosopher. He is somewhat (in)famous for having rewritten the new testament taking out all of the magic bits.

Franklin states himself that he is a deist in his autobiography (sorry, don't have a page number)

Thomas Paine specifically denounced Christianity in many of his works, especially later in life.

And I think the nail in the coffin is the Treaty of Tripoli, which I'm sure Mises is aware of, but which he will have some dumbass excuse to ignore, states in article 11, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." It was approved by the Senate and signed by then president John Adams on June 7, 1797. There is no historical record of any question of the wording of article 11. 

 You also have the fact that the First Continental congress was in session on Christmas. (although its not really the most effective argument, its still a fact) 

I'm sure there's plenty more facts which support the secular founding of the USA, but this is what I could come up with in 5 minutes. 

Wednesday, March 9, 2011 - 12:22 PM EST

Name: "Durandal"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/progressiveaudio

Fred Thompson?  So when some no name actor who wanted to play politician says something, it's automatically true.

Red Norweigian, thanks so much for these post, you've really cleared up misconceptions even I had about Norway and Scandinavia, and have gotten me reading a lot about it.  However, I thought there was no private schools for muslims in Norway, at least Wikipedia says so.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway#Other_Muslim_organizations)  but then again the page has a lot of warnings on the front.  What are muslims like in Norway anyway?  You said mostly secular right?

Wednesday, March 9, 2011 - 6:23 PM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

To Durandal:

Currently, there are no muslim schools but they have received permit from the ministry of education. There were a muslim children's school earlier, but it closed in 2004.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10018910

The article is in norwegian, but I'm sure you can get the gist of it with google translate. It mentions that the appliance specified the subjects would be the same as in norwegian public schools with 2 exceptions: Instead of students learning french, spanish or german, they will be offered to learn turkish or arabic (with norwegian still a main study). Also, instead of the normal Religion Education they would focus on Islam. Overally, the intention is to provide a norwegian school for muslim parents who currently send their kids to foreign schools (mostly to Turkey or Saudi Arabia). The appliance have been controversial from two fronts. The Left-wing of the Socialist Left Party along with Red and the Communist Party opposes it due to being a private school, and the Progress Party opposes it because it is muslim. But then again, the Progress Party are populists at heart and changes issues every month or so (with the exception of being Anti-Labour Movement, and Pro-Capitalism in some form). If the muslim population increases to became a significant voting block, they will probably start railing on the Catholics or the Buddhists instead.

This is mostly anecdotal, but I've found norwegian muslims are on average more religious than protestant norwegians. Second-generation muslim immigrants (those who have been born in Norway) are more secular than the ones who moved here. Of course there are a few fundamentalist loonies, but then again the protestants, catholics, asatru and so on also have their share of fundies/loonies. The buddhists seems to lack the fundie loonies though, although there aren't that many of them. Muslims are also pretty much been concentrated in the south-east (especially in the centrum and eastend of the capital, the working class areas of the capital).

Wednesday, March 9, 2011 - 6:41 PM EST

Name: "Reader"

Wow, I've never seen the comments on RR's posts get so petty.

Wednesday, March 9, 2011 - 8:03 PM EST

Name: "Durandal"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/progressiveaudio

To Red Norwegian:

Well, I have a friend in Germany who tells me about muslims there all the time, and according to her, the Geert Widlers/BNP/etc claims of Muslims are mostly false, and from what you say, at least that's true in Norway.  This whole anti islamic immigrants thing has never been prominent in the US until very recently (since they aren't a visible presence, it's hispanics that get all the heat) but it's always seemed like nonsense to me, since I have stupid parents who say the exact same thing about mexicans and vietnamese, saying things like they're taking over and trying to annex California into Mexico and all that nonsense.

How do you feel about this private school?  I'm assuming you're against it.  I'm not for private schools myself either.  I think if I was in a more permissive climate like Norway, I'd vote for something like a Communist party, probably that Red one.  Makes me feel kind of weird :p

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 8:57 AM EST

Name: "Red Norwegian"

To Durandal:

I'm opposed to private schools in general, including the muslim one. Although, since we already got plenty of christian private schools (and that godawful angel school), I see no reason to refuse them since christian ones are accepted.

Yeah, the whole "muslim threat" is based on hyperbole. Only one large party here goes against islam in the same way as the german rightwingers though. It's quite funny seeing their paranoid leader on TV talk of "sneak-islamisation". Hell, the ones I know who support that party (Progress Party) disagree with the party's line on muslims (throw 'em out), but vote for them due to them promising cheap booze (literally. That is their main promise when talking with youth).

We had some neonazi parties (White Electorial Alliance, Vigrid, Fatherland Party, Norwegian Patriots) who wanted to deport all non-western immigrants. Of course, they also wanted to deport black american immigrants. Western was just another word for "white". All of those parties were tiny, and have been disbanded now.

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 7:43 PM EST

Name: "Durandal"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/progressiveaudio

To Red Norwegian:

About neo-nazis, yeah the same thing is here too.  There are actually neo-nazi parties here, but they're so small and insignificant, they wouldn't win a school board election in a town of 1,000.  We do have racist in power though, there's racist in the Republican Party, and there's the Constitution Party, which is basically officially racist (it's America's BNP) which has been in state legisatures and almost won the gubernatorial election in Colorado.

I didn't know there was black americans in Norway, that's interesting. 

About the Progress Party, it's kind of confusing to read about a far right party called Progress, over here the Progressive Party is left-wing and as such only operates in the most left wing state (which is Vermont).  As for cheap booze, lol what the fuck?  What do they promise exactly?  I guess it works :p

As for private schools, what is this angel school, why do you hate it so much?

Over here we have tons of religious private schools that fundie Christians send their kids to become drones for Jesus,  even colleges like Bob Jones University, which is like going to school in Oceania from 1984, where even until recently whites and non whites were not allowed to mix.  There's Catholic schools, completely private, but those largely cater to either hispanics or just people weary of public schools, for real and imagined reasons.  I live near one and it's kind of creepy, since there's bars on the windows and doors.  I'm glad I didn't go to one.

There's private muslim schools I'm sure, but they don't get any attention because Muslims are neither visible or maligned, if that makes sense.  Until the ground zero mosque thing was exploited, no one really cared about them outside Osama Bin Ladin and Afghanistan.  I'm sure they just teach conservative islam and not Jihad and Holy War like the right wing would say.

 

 

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 7:47 PM EST

Name: "Durandal"
Home Page: http://www.youtube.com/progressiveaudio

It doesn't help the far right's case when most of the famous muslims in America are either fashion models or actors, and the few muslim politicians are also more secular than the christian politicians in their area

Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 4:23 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

Okay, I'm going to wrap this up, since the responses are getting way too long and you people keep dodging my questions.

To communist dude:

"- At the time, the population of Norway was 3 million, or half of the population of Moscow. If the USSR invaded (for some weird reason, NATO is pretty much a giant organisation of conspiracy theorists) the best we could do was hold the line. And we could be invaded by Uruguay, but I doupt they'd get far. In times of invasion, Norway can mobilise 2 million troops with basic combat training (40% of our population). In emergency times, all able-bodied men from the age of 16 to 45 can be drafted (it is in our constitution). I wouldn't call our military "piss-poor" when looking at size. And we had a sizeable number of communists. At the outbreak of the Cold War, the Communist Party had 16% support in polls (concentrated in the cities and mining areas, as well as the north)."

I don't get it, you said the military is a joke, now you say it's efficient.  Make up your mind.  Are you in the military?  Or know anyone in it?

"- So, a few homosexuals protest against religious fundamentalism. That obviously means they are all evil, militant and intolerant. "

Just the politically active ones.  Did I say all?  It's not out of bigotry that I want homosexuality outlawed, it's out of public safety.

"Again, if you base your view on homosexuals off a minority, then your view on Christians should be based on the Westboro Baptist Church or the Ku Klux Klan, they do after all get a lot of media coverage."

But those aren't real christians.

"- The main Union in Norway (850 000 members, 18% of the total population) are mostly under the heel of the Labour Party (mostly, the Communist Party and Red both enjoys a disproportinate support among union members). They are pretty tame during negotiations, although the public workers took strike action not too long ago (and the Police Union, but they are not part of the main Union)."

The fact you have unions at all tied to labor and communist parties is at least proof your country is left-wing, right?

"- Not really, no. Most people here support Palestine (ironically, only the christian party consequently supports Israel). Why shouldn't she be allowed to wear a Palestina scarf?"

How is that ironic?  Christians like me want to protect our jewish brothers.  But why do most Norweigians support Palestine?  Are they anti-semetic?  Isn't this a sign of muslims taking over?

"- No, the Coops are pretty good. Much cheaper than the private stores, and the workers gets a much better salary as well. Not to mention the numerous discounts for families who have part-ownership (which is about 90%-95% of the people who shop there). And as far as I know, the Fortune 500 list is american corporations only? By definition, a coop wouldn't get there nor matter revenue. Not that revenue is the first mission of a good coop. "

I meant Fortune Global 500.  And so the prices are cheaper, but do they sell or create worldwide products, get super rich and such?  No.  Democracy in the workplace stifles profit motive.

"- Because the state church doesn't wield any power over secular politics? "

It must be hard being a Christian in Norway.  But the cross is on the Norweigian flag, so isn't it a Christian nation?  How did atheist take it over?  The USSR I'm sure.

"Not to mention, only about 20% of norwegians take religion seriously according to latest statistics. "

Atheistic materialism for you.

"- Really? I've heard a few of the guys who wrote your constitution were seculars, at least. And yeah, although in our history it's mostly that the christian fundamentalists were mostly the ones who left Norway (a few cults native to norway, only exists in the US, luckily for us)."

Well that's highly debatable.  St. Augustine wanted a separation of church and state, not a secular state, there's a difference, atheist have twisted the words of religious Christians like Thomas Jefferson to make him look like a secularist!

"- Last I checked, children were human beings. And do have rights."

Says who?  Can they vote and file taxes?

"- I don't know about that, my classmate's grades didn't exactly improve. Although, the teacher were entertaining since he never really went all out on a single person and said it with good humour.  - Oh, that. Spanking isn't illegal here (last I checked, at least). It is viewed negatively by most people though."

Well spanking should be in schools too to get grades up.  They do it in South Korea, you can get beaten for getting a failing grade there by teachers.  Highly educated population too.  So connect the dots.  How many Norweigians become scientist and engineers and such?  I doubt much.

"- A bad sign? No, not really. The Worker's Communist Party/Red Electorial Alliance (what became Red in 2007) had an MP from 1993-1997, and he managed to unveil a lot of corruption and high salaries that the MPs and politicans grabbed to them, and put them to light. Resulted in a lot less corruption, and a general decrease in the politician's bloated salaries. At the time, Erling Folkvord (the communist MP) was deputy leader of the Worker's Communist Party. Red suffered in the last elections, because their leader (Thorstein Dahle) is not very charismatic. They got a new leader, so it will be interesting to see how they'll do (the latest polls indicate they will get 2 MPs)."

What business is it for a damn communist to tell people what to do with their paychecks and how much money they can make?  I can't believe it was legal for him to be in your parliament!  And now that party can get back into there!  I read even the Labour and Socialist Left party don't want them in!  I can feel their pain, I feel bad for Norway!

"- He's a symbol. The king and the rest of the royal family are essentially diplomats. And the kings here have managed to be quite "people-ish" (don't know an adequate word for it in English). Among others, the king before the current one took public transport. Plus, they have generally supported the Labour Movement (trade unions, socialist parties) as much (or in cases, more) than they support the conservatives and liberals. The norwegian left have... a complicated relationship with the monarchy. General opinion is that the monarchy should go, but the current king be granted a generous pension."

Your king sounds like a lazy parasite.

"- Not really. People were generally horrified by the plane crashes. They were also generally horrified by the invasions and killing of Afghani and Iraqi civilians."

Well I heard europeans marched in the streets saying america deserved it and such.  

"Fatah are secular social-democrats/socialists who try their best to act as a government of a country under occupation."

They were founded by the terrorist Yassir Arafat, and they for decades waged war against Israel with the help of Egypt and Iraq under Saddam Hussein and Syria and even european countries like Greece and Sweden (damn communist were in charge then as I said before).  They're communist yes, but I assumed they got most of their support from Muslim terrorist.

"PFLP"

Oh those communist terrorist who did the precursor to 9/11.  Wonderful.  So Norway supports terrorism.

Why does Norway support Palestine I ask again.

"- Yeah the muslim population is increasing, although the Russian Orthodox Church is growing much more rapidly and Catholic to a lesser extent. Yes, there is also a muslim party (which is tiny), and also an immigrant party (but they are secular). And yeah, they have been granted private school (by the bloody hypocrites in Socialist Left, no less). But then, so are christian schools. And that bloody angel school of the Princess. Why make an exception for muslims?"

Well because muslim schools teach Jihad.

"- The last one to be executed were the traitor Quisling after WW2. De facto, death penalty has been abolished since that (but I still thought we had it de jure, but seems like I was wrong). Which is a shame. There are some criminals that only deserve a bullet to the head (child rapists and psychopaths), although public executions are just to scare the population into submission and should be opposed."

Who is this traitor?  And for once, I agree with you on criminals being shot.  But of course, your european mind rejects the one thing needed for public order.  No wonder your country is drowning in sexual crimes and violence.

"Also, you seem to flip-flop on your criticism of the USSR. A state can't both be a criminal cess pool, and a police state at the same time. That's like saying immigrants steal jobs at the same time as they leech of unemployment benefits. One cancels out the other."

I thought police states always happened because of high crime and a desire to oppress.  

To Ismail:

"The USSR had less prisoners than the US did in the 1980's, and you said that "we deter crime better." Yet the USSR was apparently a "craphole." So either the USSR wasn't as oppressive as commonly perceived (for there to be less prisoners) or you don't know what you're talking about. Most of Russia has gotten worse since the USSR collapsed, and this is especially true for most other former Union Republics outside of the Baltics."

Doesn't having more prisoners mean you have less crime?

"The 1984 Nicaraguan election was considered acceptable by pretty much everyone except the US Government."

I said the 1990 elections.  The 84 ones were a sham by Cuba.  Can you prove they were accepted by anyone but Warsaw?

And Rhodesia was a democracy for whites, like the USA or Europe, which are white countries.  Would you be for blacks taking over the USA and making it a dictatorship?

To boogerjames:

Prove it.  The treaty of tripoli is being taken out of context there.

To Durandal:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/22000/donald-trump-dhimmi-miss-hezbollah-wins-miss-usa-was-contest-rigged-for-muslima-hezbollah-supporter-miss-oklahomas-great-arizona-immigration-answer/

Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 7:27 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0 Good video to watch on anyone who wants to seriously know about Scandinavia

Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 10:36 AM EST

Name: "boogerjames"

Mises said (bolded for emphasis on stupidity),

"It's not out of bigotry that I want homosexuality outlawed, it's out of public safety." 

Spoken like a true bigot.

Mises, I would pray for your soul, but I'm an atheist and I doubt it would do any good even if I wasn't. 

Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 6:28 PM EST

Name: "TheMisesKing"

No, I as a Christian will pray for your soul.  I'm not a bigot, I don't hate homosexuals.  Why can't you people understand that.

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 2:02 PM EDT

Name: "boogerjames"

Mises,

Let me start off by saysing I've taken an overly sarcastic approach with you previously because I believe your arguments are so rediculous that its hard disagree with you politely. That being said, let me try to more calmly explain my thoughts on why your veiws on homosexuality are misguided.

You claim that you don't hate homosexuals (as people), yet you specifically think that the actions that they engage in should be criminalized, specifically homosexual intercouse. I think we can both agree that is an exeptable paraphrase of your views. So that I don't have to continue repeating the same phrase over anad over, I will refer to this as your "Opinion". Furthermore, you state that the reason that the act of homosexual intercouse should be outlawed is that it negatively impacts society as a whole. I'll refer to this as your "Reason."

Disregarding for the moment your Reason, I will address your Opinion. I would like you to fulling understand how it feels for a gay person when they encounter someone with your Opinion. For someone that is gay, being gay is a core foundation of their identity. In order for you to fully understand the amount of their identity that is placed upon this fact, think about your own Christianity and how much of your identity that makes up. Now lets play a quick thought experiment. Imagine for me that someone tells you that, sure you can be a Christain, thats perfectly OK, but, you're not allowed to pray! Even in the confines of your own home, when noone else is around! I know this isn't the most perfect example, but its a good approximation of what it sounds like to gay people when they hear your Opinion. 

Sorry have to run do work. I'll address your Reason in a subsequent post later. 

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 2:29 PM EDT

Name: "Red Norwegian"

To TheMisesKing:

- The military is efficient, for the size of the country. To take an extreme, San Marino wouldn't stand a chance in a war with China. Regardless of how the countries' respective militaries were run. I haven't had my national service (still getting education), but I know a hell of a lot of people who have been/are in the military. The majority of the adult male population has been in the military at some point. My father's tour of duty was as a bodyguard for the royal family (the Guard). Nowadays, the military is getting heavy cuts (especially the Home Guard/Militia). I doubt we'd hold any major country off for more than a few days in case of invasion.

- "Well, I wan't to ban christianity. Not out of bigotry, out of public safety. The politically active christians are forcing laws down our throats, and some are attacking muslims and atheists." How does that sound? Your argument is ridicilous, really. Any grouping will have a fringe who is violent. This includes sexual groupings (most rape is still heterosexual, after all).

- Oh, so they aren't Real Christians suddenly? What is a Real Christian then? They sure as hell say they believe Jesus was the son og god, and afaik that is the only thing that is necessary (unless you are Catholic?). Well, then I say violent homosexuals aren't Real Homosexuals.

- The Trade Unions are mostly leftist in nature, since left-wing politics are what benefits the working class. The Worker's Party (and, by extension, the Communist Party) was created by the Trade Unions to act as the parliamentary wing of the Union. Later the power relationship shifted in the favor of the Worker's Party, although Gerd-Liv Valla (former leader of the Conference of Unions) held a more independent line and made the Trade Union movement interfere more in politics (mostly in the favor of socialist policies, egalitarianism, anti-racism, feminism and the like).

- Most norwegians support Palestina because we are sympathetic to occupied people who get interned, shot and starved. Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with it. Hell, the Nazi parties supported Israel against Palestina. Palestina was supported long before muslims even made up 0.1% of the population.

- They do sell world-wide products (you can even buy Cuban juice from there). Well, if only one person owned the retail he/she would make big money. Currently, it is owned by 1 250 000 people (25% of the total population). Currently, the profit is divided, so no one makes huge money but many earns a little in addition to cheap good quality merchandise. And I checked the Fortune Global 500. The only norwegian company (Statoil) is a state-run company.

- Hard being a christian? Not really. The Cross is because the other scandinavian countries have it, and Denmark has it because they have had it since the 13th century. Legend has it that the flag flew into the King's hands when he christianised Estonia (ie, slaughtered the majority of the native population and colonised it). Atheists haven't taken over anything. Most people don't give a shit about religion. So, the agnostics have taken over I guess?

- Don't know about that. Religion just doesn't affect that many people in their day-to-day lives. The southwest is quite religious, examplified by local anti-alcohol laws and the whole culture. The middle and north is... not religious. The east is somewhat religious, but the large number of muslims inflate the number of people who care about religion. A muslim in class commented today "Aren't you supposed to be christians?" when no one could answer a question about christianity in history class.

- Yeah, separation of church and state. Religion should have no effect on politics, and obey the laws set by democratic votes. That is the practice here, with the exception of the State Church. Which most people is against, but there aren't enough harcore atheists to front it and the christian vote is significant in the west.

- Children muse file taxes here as long as they earn above 40 000 kroner yearly (roughly 6000-7000 dollars). And the whole "human rights" business still applies as long as you are more than a few seconds old.

- ... It kind of is people's business, when MPs leech millions off of public funds for themselves. He simply went out about it. He was horrified to find out about the mass corruption himself. And we are a democratic country, and he was legally voted by the people of Oslo (the capital city) to represent them. It looks like they can get another MP in Oslo in next election, along with Hordaland (due to Bergen, second largest city). Communism is generally more popular in cities, and mining or lumberjack towns.

- That's because he is a lazy parasite.

- Well, I didn't see no marching. Except when you then used it as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Pakistan. Then people demonstrated and burned yankee flags.

- Again, country in occupation. We would have to condemn our entire government during WW2 for anti-Nazi activites, if we started issuing the same morals as you on the Palestinians.

- Most Norwegians support PFLP (and the Palestinian resistance in general). The Norwegian state haven't, as far as I know, sent resources to the PLO or Hamas. There have been shiploads of food and medical equipment that has been sent in, organised by immigrant organisations and left-wing and centre parties though. And simply put, a lot of older norwegians support Palestina due to their situation being similar to Norway's own during WW2 (occupation). Videos of children being murdered by Israelite soldiers don't really help the Zionist cause.

- If the school taught Jihad, they wouldn't survive a single inspection. Private schools aren't allowed to run free and teach all manner of craziness into students (not even the christian ones).

- Quisling was the leader of National Gathering (the nazi party before and during WW2). He acted as a puppet leader of Norway, to attempt to legitimise the occupation. And we have a much lower crime-rate than the USA. We must be doing something right, eh?

- Police States either happen intentionally, or when countries are afflicted with some kind of siege mentality. If high crime rates made police state, then Somalia would be a police state.

- (to video). Heh. I actually know people from Malmø. They wouldn't recognise the whole "crime due to immigration". The info is technically right, rape has increased three times... In accordance with general population growth (not evil muslim influence). When they started making a sympathy plight for the Swedish Democrats, I stopped listen. They are "ex"-nazis, and only changed their name in the 90s (and stopped doing the hitler salute and goose-stepping in the late 90s). They are bloody fascists, little else.

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 7:44 PM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"


"- The military is efficient, for the size of the country. To take an extreme, San Marino wouldn't stand a chance in a war with China."

Yeah, or you can say, Norway wouldn't standa a chance in a war against China or the USA.  

"I haven't had my national service (still getting education), but I know a hell of a lot of people who have been/are in the military. The majority of the adult male population has been in the military at some point. My father's tour of duty was as a bodyguard for the royal family (the Guard). Nowadays, the military is getting heavy cuts (especially the Home Guard/Militia). I doubt we'd hold any major country off for more than a few days in case of invasion."

So doesn't that make it piss poor?  You guys rely on us and our nuclear shield protecting you, you remind me a lot of Canada, what pathetic crybabies who in the first sign of trouble come running towards us.  And your father was a bodyguard?  What are you, a rabblerouser?

"- "Well, I wan't to ban christianity. Not out of bigotry, out of public safety. The politically active christians are forcing laws down our throats, and some are attacking muslims and atheists." How does that sound? Your argument is ridicilous, really. Any grouping will have a fringe who is violent. This includes sexual groupings (most rape is still heterosexual, after all)."

Christianity is just a religious affiliation and the vast majority keep it to themselves, homosexuality however is shoved down peoples throats in schools, in both Norway and the US.  American kids are now being taught to be tolerant of homosexuality and gay marriage is legal in a few states even.  It's legal in Norway too right?  I call that pushing a lifestyle choice onto others.

"- The Trade Unions are mostly leftist in nature, since left-wing politics are what benefits the working class"

How?  Give an example.

"The Worker's Party (and, by extension, the Communist Party) was created by the Trade Unions to act as the parliamentary wing of the Union. "

And that's scary.  Would you not agree?  Unions are made up of power hungry whackjob workers who want to take over everything.  It's why I support the fight to destroy them in Wisconsin, but of course, the unions have completely destabilized the state in protest and got support from lower class idiots.

"Later the power relationship shifted in the favor of the Worker's Party, although Gerd-Liv Valla (former leader of the Conference of Unions) held a more independent line and made the Trade Union movement interfere more in politics (mostly in the favor of socialist policies, egalitarianism, anti-racism, feminism and the like)."

Okay, socialist policies, egalitarianism, anti-racism, feminism, that's all activism, how do those help common people?

"- Oh, so they aren't Real Christians suddenly? What is a Real Christian then?"

Someone who follows the Bible.  Ever read it?  Weren't you raised in a religion?  You should know this.

"Well, then I say violent homosexuals aren't Real Homosexuals."

But homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and a sexuality, not a simple religious affiliation.  You're not making any sense commie.  According to the Ismail guy, Communist are supposed to hate gays anyway.  Don't be a non conformist.
'
"- Most norwegians support Palestina because we are sympathetic to occupied people who get interned, shot and starved."

Why?  

"Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with it."

Then what?  If you want Israel to be destroyed, which I assume you do, you're pretty much an anti-semite.  Might as well heil hitler.

"Palestina was supported long before muslims even made up 0.1% of the population."

So Norweigans are fools then.

"- They do sell world-wide products (you can even buy Cuban juice from there). Well, if only one person owned the retail he/she would make big money. Currently, it is owned by 1 250 000 people (25% of the total population). Currently, the profit is divided, so no one makes huge money but many earns a little in addition to cheap good quality merchandise. And I checked the Fortune Global 500. The only norwegian company (Statoil) is a state-run company."

I don't believe that, source please?  State run companies are not efficient.

"- That's because he is a lazy parasite."

Like most Scandinavians, welfarian lot.

"- ... It kind of is people's business, when MPs leech millions off of public funds for themselves. He simply went out about it. He was horrified to find out about the mass corruption himself. And we are a democratic country, and he was legally voted by the people of Oslo (the capital city) to represent them. It looks like they can get another MP in Oslo in next election, along with Hordaland (due to Bergen, second largest city). Communism is generally more popular in cities, and mining or lumberjack towns."

I agree, but it sucks a communist had to root it out, it makes communist look good and like public servants. And they can?  I want to read this because now I'm going to be keeping my eye on your socialist country as a threat, just like Sweden.

"- Again, country in occupation. We would have to condemn our entire government during WW2 for anti-Nazi activites, if we started issuing the same morals as you on the Palestinians.

- Most Norwegians support PFLP (and the Palestinian resistance in general). The Norwegian state haven't, as far as I know, sent resources to the PLO or Hamas. There have been shiploads of food and medical equipment that has been sent in, organised by immigrant organisations and left-wing and centre parties though. And simply put, a lot of older norwegians support Palestina due to their situation being similar to Norway's own during WW2 (occupation). Videos of children being murdered by Israelite soldiers don't really help the Zionist cause."

Wasn't the Norwegian "occupation" Norway bending over backwards and letting the nazis stay there while they enjoyed a good life, like in France?  How many people even died in this "occupation?"  You sound like blonde haired blue eyed versions of the surrender monkeys.  We had to save your asses as usual.

Maybe Israelis kill a few children here and there because palestinians blow up their school buses and clubs and homes.  Even the nicest people will crack if they have to face death every single day.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/03/12/family-slaughtered-by-palestinians/

Is this the PFLP you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLP#Armed_attacks_of_the_PFLP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson%27s_Field_hijackings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine_suicide_attacks

What a bunch of communist sickos.  You people support communist terrorism against innocent people.

"- Well, I didn't see no marching. Except when you then used it as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Pakistan. Then people demonstrated and burned yankee flags."

I'm sure there was.  And I guess that was supposed to offend us, it doesn't though since you joined in on the invasions (fearing our reprisal) and will run to us in the minute of trouble. LMFAO

"- If the school taught Jihad, they wouldn't survive a single inspection. Private schools aren't allowed to run free and teach all manner of craziness into students (not even the christian ones)."

No they can just teach atheistic communist rebellions, which just help muslim terrorist anyway.

"And we have a much lower crime-rate than the USA. We must be doing something right, eh?"

No less people and you have less crimes in your law, like you people can just hurt and kill anyone and get a ticket for it, especially if the person was "right wing."

"- (to video). Heh. I actually know people from Malmø. They wouldn't recognise the whole "crime due to immigration". The info is technically right, rape has increased three times... In accordance with general population growth (not evil muslim influence). When they started making a sympathy plight for the Swedish Democrats, I stopped listen. They are "ex"-nazis, and only changed their name in the 90s (and stopped doing the hitler salute and goose-stepping in the late 90s). They are bloody fascists, little else."

Yeah, cite some sources please.

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 9:05 PM EDT

Name: "Red Norwegian"

To TheMisesKing:

- No, we wouldn't. We would stand a good chance against Alabama, though, which has roughly our population.

- We rely far more on the British and French, than the USA, for defencive purposes.

- How is making it legal for homosexuals to marry pushing it down other people's throat? If they forced people to become homosexual, they would be. Like how people here are forced to join the State Church as kids (unless neither parent is member of the State Church). Now, that is pushing religion down someones throat. And the vast majority of homosexuals also keep it to themselves, mostly out of fear of homophobes (like a friend of mine who goes on the mechanics line, he is deathly afraid of his classmates finding out).

- How leftist politics benefits the working class? Look at our living standards, income equality and social rights. Minimum wages, pushes wages up in general. Enforcing them avoids job loss due to illegal immigration. Unemployment benefits increases the power of the worker in the workplace, as strike action is no longer only a life or death decision (as it was in the early 20th century).

- I'm a Union member. Most workers are union members here. Of course we want to take over everything, it is we that creates the wealth. We demand a fair share of what we create.

- Feminism: Helps 50% of the population. Much of the anti-racist politics of the Union is against "social dumping", namely enforcing a minimum wage for immigrant workers. Improves the lot for all workers involved (native workers don't lose job, immigrant get a better wage). Egalitarianism naturally aids the working class, against upper-middle and upper class. Socialdemocratic (and earlier, socialistic) policies is what Norway was built on (although, since the 80s there have been a wave of privatisations. Privatised public companies have generally provided a shittier service afterwards, like the electricity companies).

- Yes, I have. "The only road to salvation is through Me" Jesus said that, did he not? Knowledge of the bible does not matter, or church attendance, as long as one accepts Jesus into one's heart.

- Religion is far more of a choice than sexuality is. Sexuality is something one is born with. And homosexuality is not really a lifestyle from what I've seen, except romantic/sexual partner choices. They vary about as much as heterosexuals. And homosexuality is viewed negatively by most russian communists, doesn't mean it is a part of communism. Communism as a theory only cares about classes, not sexualities/ethnicities.

- Human empathy and a basic sence of right/wrong.

- I want Israel as it is today to be destroyed, doesn't mean I want the jews in the area to be killed. There's a difference between being an Anti-Zionite and Anti-Semite. Even the Norwegian Jews are split on the Palestina/Israel issue.

- Fools for not supporting the US' little puppet state in the middle east?

- http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2010/snapshots/6406.html

74 on the list. Statoil literally means State Oil, and runs the oil rigs, R&D for rig tech and gas/petroleum exports. Profit goes straight to the norwegian state.

- Most norwegians are hard-working, with a tradition of dugnad (voluntary free labour for common goals). Less so among the younger generation, who have grown up with the more individualistic society after the 1980s.

- Latest polls indicate that Red will get 2 MPs, giving them a "kingmaker" position in parliament. Without Red, the Red-Greens would need to rule as a minority coalition.

- Norway had a very active resistance from the start of the occupation till the end. The only organised armed resistance until 1944 was the saboutage units of the Norwegian Communist Party, and the Osvaldgroup. The Osvaldgroup answered directly to NKVD (what became the KGB), and not to the Communist Party of Norway. The British funded resistance had orders to not take actions against the germans until the time was right (which was 6 months before the war ended). Tens of thousands died in the occupation. Among others, 21 of the 23 central committee members of the Communist Party died, in firefights with enemy soldiers and gestapo or got captured and worked to death in concentration camps. The yankees didn't do jack shit to liberate Norway. The USSR did, with a death toll of 20 000 Soviet soldiers in the north alone. The British also attempted twice, but aborted as soon as it was evident norway was heavily fortified (roughly 300 000 german personnel near the end).

Yeah, even the nicest people will crack. Too bad it was the zionists who started the whole childkilling and bombing of civilians. Israel and Palestina is in war. And yeah, many norwegians support PFLP. Innocent becomes a meaningless term when neither side shows quarter, and Israel saboutages peace talks.

- We joined Afghanistan, as you got the UN to order it. Despite most norwegians opposing war in Afghanistan. I participated in a anti-War demonstration outside the parliament not too long ago. Unfortunately, our politicians are too far up the yankee asses to pull out. We did not join Iraq.

- You obviously have no experience with the norwegian school system. No teaching of atheist communist rebellions here.

- Crime-rate is per 1000 capita, so total population makes no difference. Murder is 21 years in jail, indefinite if it is proven one suffers from a psychological disorder (like psychopathy). Politics doesn't matter if it is murder.

-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#Early_years_.281988.E2.80.931995.29

"The roots of the party can be found in Swedish fascism, and the early main source of inspiration was the British National Front."

"From 1995, the party's new leader Mikael Jansson (previously a member of the Centre Party) strove to make the party more respectable, and introduced a uniform ban in 1996."

Yeah... they had to actually ban the usage of uniforms, in their bid to look "respectable". Turns out nazis can get into parliament as long as they ditch the uniforms and the sieging and the heiling.

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 9:19 PM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

"

Let me start off by saysing I've taken an overly sarcastic approach with you previously because I believe your arguments are so rediculous that its hard disagree with you politely. That being said, let me try to more calmly explain my thoughts on why your veiws on homosexuality are misguided.

You claim that you don't hate homosexuals (as people), yet you specifically think that the actions that they engage in should be criminalized, specifically homosexual intercouse. I think we can both agree that is an exeptable paraphrase of your views. So that I don't have to continue repeating the same phrase over anad over, I will refer to this as your "Opinion". Furthermore, you state that the reason that the act of homosexual intercouse should be outlawed is that it negatively impacts society as a whole. I'll refer to this as your "Reason."

Disregarding for the moment your Reason, I will address your Opinion. I would like you to fulling understand how it feels for a gay person when they encounter someone with your Opinion. For someone that is gay, being gay is a core foundation of their identity. In order for you to fully understand the amount of their identity that is placed upon this fact, think about your own Christianity and how much of your identity that makes up. Now lets play a quick thought experiment. Imagine for me that someone tells you that, sure you can be a Christain, thats perfectly OK, but, you're not allowed to pray! Even in the confines of your own home, when noone else is around! I know this isn't the most perfect example, but its a good approximation of what it sounds like to gay people when they hear your Opinion. 

Sorry have to run do work. I'll address your Reason in a subsequent post later. "

I can answer this very briefly.  Homosexuality is known to cause social destruction and break up families.  Why do you think people like me oppose it?

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 9:22 PM EDT

Name: "boogerjames"

Ok, I'm back. Sorry, work got in the way of my internet arguing.

Mises,

In my previous post, I attempted to impart on you the some sort of understanding of how your rhetoric is taken by the gay community. You are essentially telling them, you don't hate them, you just hate one of the core traits that make up who they are. I think you can understand why some could take that the wrong way. I also attempted to point out to you how the shoe would look on the other foot, by giving an example of similar sentiments replacing homosexuality with Christianity. 

However, from your most recent post replying to Red, it seems that the bigger disagreement we have is with what I previously called your Reason. That is that homosexuality should be outlawed because it negatively impacts society (although I think you put it a little more blunt).

For this post, I would like for you to understand why I find this a completely worthless Reason, and to ask you to help me better understand your position by providing some follow-up. I've heard this put many different was by many people who share your views. I've heard many different versions of your Reason, "gay marriage hurts families", etc. and the question I always ask myself is HOW? I mean I could spout on about how Spaghetti with Meatballs harms society and is crippling this country and destroying families, but unless I can answer how, I don't have much of an argument.

So my challenge to you is, "How does gay marraige / homosexual behavior lead to the destruction of families / societies, etc?" I honestly want to know. I've tried researching several sites including the AFA, Focus on the Family, and Mises.org (with I assume is where your name comes from). They all claim gay marriage / homosexual intercourse is bad. the reasons they give are the same as yours: it destroys society; it is diminishing the meaning of marriage, etc. The one thing they never state is exactly HOW!

I look forward to your response. 

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 9:45 PM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

"I’m being Skeptical, mate – you’re telling me that Christianity didn’t influence Western Laws,"

Of course I didn't say that, I said our laws are not derived from Canon law, or any uniform set of theocratic laws.  The only example you used is something that's gone in both Australia and the United States, and also its country of origin.  

"Homosexuality was tolerated in Roman Culture before Christianity. This changed when Emperor Constantine and his son established Christianity and declared Homosexuality to be a sin punishable by death. Roman/Canon Law was hugely influential throughout the history of Continental European law."

Yeah but that has nothing to do with the Sodomy laws you mentioned.  They never mentioned homosexuality.  Laws against homosexuality were not even aimed at gay sex originally (not that they tolerated it), they were aimed at people having gay relationships that wouldn't foster children and continue family lines, which is why Judaism, Christianity and Islam (especially Judaism and Islam which are from poor, tribal origins) for example oppose homosexuality, even if nowadays they don't know it.  They didn't just hate homosexuality for the the hell of it.  If we didn't live in an advanced society with modern medicine, our societies would be less tolerant towards homosexuals.

"The pre-Christian Germanic Tribes also didn’t punish homosexuality, and neither did the early Anglo-Saxons – as with the Romans, it was Christianity that changed their perspective on the issue and influenced their laws."

Yes, I know this.  It's funny you bring up early Anglo-Saxons, the basis for Anglo law, and you clearly they didn't illegalize homosexuality.  So, you're kind of contradicting yourself there.

"Roman/Canon Law"

Pre-Canon Roman Law was far more influencial in the US.

"As for the USA, Gary DeMar (though a Christian) provides examples of Christian influence. If he is wrong, then allow me to ask you this:"

I never said there's no Christian influence in America, I said our government and laws don't derive from Christianity.  Neither do Britians, as their laws and systems existed before Christianity.   I'm sure even Richard Dawkins knows that.

Also plenty of Christians would agree with my statement, like all the christian groups which are for separation of church and state.  Far right wing evangelist ones though love lying about US history.  Even retard Canadian ones like VenomfangX like doing it, :p

"Where did the anti-Sodomy laws come from? The Romans didn’t have them, and neither did the early Germanic tribes. Where did the anti-Sodomy laws come from, if not Christianity?"

Um...I gave you the origins of the Sodomy laws that were both in the US and Australia, and I think Canada too (English Canada anyway).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws#United_Kingdom

Do you know who King Henry the VIII was?  Even I as an Atheist wouldn't call him a good example of a Christian.

Also, you misunderstand me.  I didn't say it didn't have ANY influence from Christianity, I said it wasn't from Canon law, which is Catholic law.  I don't know why any American law would be based off Catholic Law, or English Law for that matter, since the law originates from the first Anglicans.  There has never been any unified  christian law, for example protestants have never had any uniformed set of laws they can agree with.  Protestants were too busy killing each other to form one and by the time they could get along, secularism already took its roots in the protestant world.  Of course Christianity has influenced almost everything in our lives, when we say God Damnit or Go to Hell, that's from Christian influence.  When we use metaphors from the Bible, obviously that's Christian.  So are atheist hypocrites for using that vernacular?  You don't have a good understanding of law and its evolution.

"- No, we wouldn't. We would stand a good chance against Alabama, though, which has roughly our population."

Wow, one out of 50 states, impressive.  Minnesotas national guard (my state) could take on your pathetic defense force anyday anyway. LMFAO

"- We rely far more on the British and French, than the USA, for defencive purposes."

How so?  And if true, still, you guys should learn to defend yourselves.  You can't run to mommy and daddy forever.

"- How is making it legal for homosexuals to marry pushing it down other people's throat?"

Since people like me have to witness it everyday.  There's now open homosexuals in my family (my son) and I have to interact with them every waking day.

"Like how people here are forced to join the State Church as kids (unless neither parent is member of the State Church). Now, that is pushing religion down someones throat. And the vast majority of homosexuals also keep it to themselves, mostly out of fear of homophobes (like a friend of mine who goes on the mechanics line, he is deathly afraid of his classmates finding out)."

I see the state church thing as preserving heritage, not shoving something down ones throat.  And he should be, I mean he should keep his sexual habits to himself.

"Look at our living standards, "

Seems like poor and depressed to me.  What do Norweigans do anyway?

"Unemployment benefits increases the power of the worker in the workplace, as strike action is no longer only a life or death decision (as it was in the early 20th century)."

So you let welfarians take your country hostage.  Wonderful.  Let me guess, you've mooched off welfare before too?

"Minimum wages, pushes wages up in general. Enforcing them avoids job loss due to illegal immigration"

Why not just militarize the borders?

"- I'm a Union member. Most workers are union members here. Of course we want to take over everything, it is we that creates the wealth. We demand a fair share of what we create."

So you admit to your diabolical plot, lol.  Why should your special interest group run everything?  I thought you believed in democracy.  But wait, isn't Communism against democracy?

"Feminism: Helps 50% of the population. Much of the anti-racist politics of the Union is against "social dumping", namely enforcing a minimum wage for immigrant workers. Improves the lot for all workers involved (native workers don't lose job, immigrant get a better wage). Egalitarianism naturally aids the working class, against upper-middle and upper class. Socialdemocratic (and earlier, socialistic) policies is what Norway was built on (although, since the 80s there have been a wave of privatisations. Privatised public companies have generally provided a shittier service afterwards, like the electricity companies)."

How does feminism help 50 percent?

How do anti racist policies as you call them prevent this?  You're just giving me ancedotes.

Why do you hate the upper middle and upper class?

How are the privatized companies shitty?  All the famous companies in the world are private, are you saying Microsoft and Toyota are shitty?

"- Yes, I have. "The only road to salvation is through Me" Jesus said that, did he not? Knowledge of the bible does not matter, or church attendance, as long as one accepts Jesus into one's heart. "

According to who?  The Bible says without works, faith is dead.

"- Religion is far more of a choice than sexuality is. Sexuality is something one is born with."

Eh?  According to what?  So sexual positions and sexual habits are completely hardwired into you?  Lol, don't make me laugh.

"And homosexuality is not really a lifestyle from what I've seen, except romantic/sexual partner choices. "

That's all it is about, being a whoremonger and fucking people you shouldn't be with all the time.  It's one of the reasons we got so much STD's.

"And homosexuality is viewed negatively by most russian communists, doesn't mean it is a part of communism. Communism as a theory only cares about classes, not sexualities/ethnicities."

Communist supported that rat Martin Luther King Jr, the Communist Party of the USA used to have influence and it invited blacks and such in, I see Communism as for breaking down stable racial and sexual barriers.  Communist and Socialist ruin everything.

"- Most norwegians are hard-working, with a tradition of dugnad (voluntary free labour for common goals). Less so among the younger generation, who have grown up with the more individualistic society after the 1980s."

How can you be hard working when you mooch off socialist handouts?  I bet Norweigans dont even work 40 hours a week.

"- Latest polls indicate that Red will get 2 MPs, giving them a "kingmaker" position in parliament. Without Red, the Red-Greens would need to rule as a minority coalition."

I dont know how parliaments work so you'll have to explain this to me.  I assumed 2 MPs wouldn't matter much.

"- Norway had a very active resistance from the start of the occupation till the end. The only organised armed resistance until 1944 was the saboutage units of the Norwegian Communist Party, and the Osvaldgroup. The Osvaldgroup answered directly to NKVD (what became the KGB), and not to the Communist Party of Norway. The British funded resistance had orders to not take actions against the germans until the time was right (which was 6 months before the war ended). Tens of thousands died in the occupation. Among others, 21 of the 23 central committee members of the Communist Party died, in firefights with enemy soldiers and gestapo or got captured and worked to death in concentration camps. The yankees didn't do jack shit to liberate Norway. The USSR did, with a death toll of 20 000 Soviet soldiers in the north alone. The British also attempted twice, but aborted as soon as it was evident norway was heavily fortified (roughly 300 000 german personnel near the end)."

I was thinking more along the lines of civilians suffering, the country being choked and such.  All you've described is communist terrorist I assume being shot at and killed.  I assume if communist committed acts of terrorism in Norway now, the same thing would happen.  Yeah, the USSR apparently fought against the Nazis, because they were their enemy, all they wanted to do is make Norway a stalinist state with gulags, like the USSR did with Vietnam, Cambodia and Chile.  And the US immensely helped you by defeating the Nazis, you should be kissing our asses, not pathetically trying to offend us with your outdated langauge.

"Too bad it was the zionists who started the whole childkilling and bombing of civilians"

Uh-huh, according to who?

"And yeah, many norwegians support PFLP "

So you don't object to me calling Norweigans terrorist lovers.  

"- I want Israel as it is today to be destroyed,"

Oh so you want an entire nation to be destroyed, wonderful.  I guess you want the US to be destroyed too.

"doesn't mean I want the jews in the area to be killed. "

Just made into slaves for muslims right?  Muslims would make them a minority and into slaves, I hope you know that.

"There's a difference between being an Anti-Zionite and Anti-Semite."

Enlighten me.

"Even the Norwegian Jews are split on the Palestina/Israel issue."

Heh, there's traitor jews everywhere, even pro palestinian "jews" here.

"- Fools for not supporting the US' little puppet state in the middle east?"

More like our brothers and the only democracy in the middle east.  You're so ungrateful to the US.

"Unfortunately, our politicians are too far up the yankee asses to pull out. "

At least that's one positive thing about your country.  But even the communist like Socialist Left and such are "up the yankees ass?"

"I participated in a anti-War demonstration outside the parliament not too long ago. "

Did you burn the US flag?

"Innocent becomes a meaningless term when neither side shows quarter, and Israel saboutages peace talks."

So that little three month old baby just deserved to be stabbed to death, because the government of Israel, according to you, sabatoges peace talks.

"- We joined Afghanistan, as you got the UN to order it. "

You don't know how much that warms my heart.

"- Crime-rate is per 1000 capita, so total population makes no difference. Murder is 21 years in jail, indefinite if it is proven one suffers from a psychological disorder (like psychopathy). Politics doesn't matter if it is murder."

Hmm well still I assume you guys are racked with crime, again you guys don't really believe in punishing crime, am I right?

"- You obviously have no experience with the norwegian school system. No teaching of atheist communist rebellions here."

Fine, then what the hell do they teach there on the matter?  Something makes you guys not care about religion.

"Yeah... they had to actually ban the usage of uniforms, in their bid to look "respectable". Turns out nazis can get into parliament as long as they ditch the uniforms and the sieging and the heiling."

And communist can if they ditch the little red book and love of Stalin I guess.  After all, they're going to get two seats according to your polls.  I feel very bad for your country.

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 9:54 PM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

I copied and pasted something from a blog I was arguing on from Mises.org, I got it mixed up in my text file, so ignore that.  Lol I hate this comment system since you can't delete this.

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 10:04 PM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

"In my previous post, I attempted to impart on you the some sort of understanding of how your rhetoric is taken by the gay community. You are essentially telling them, you don't hate them, you just hate one of the core traits that make up who they are. I think you can understand why some could take that the wrong way. I also attempted to point out to you how the shoe would look on the other foot, by giving an example of similar sentiments replacing homosexuality with Christianity. "

Yeah but when has Christianity hurt society and broke up families?  I don't care what the gay community thinks, they're breaking up my family.

"I've heard many different versions of your Reason, "gay marriage hurts families", etc. and the question I always ask myself is HOW?"

As a father, I now have to shun my son.

"So my challenge to you is, "How does gay marraige / homosexual behavior lead to the destruction of families / societies, etc?" I honestly want to know. I've tried researching several sites including the AFA, Focus on the Family, and Mises.org (with I assume is where your name comes from). They all claim gay marriage / homosexual intercourse is bad. the reasons they give are the same as yours: it destroys society; it is diminishing the meaning of marriage, etc. The one thing they never state is exactly HOW!"

http://www.nationformarriage.org/site/c.omL2KeN0LzH/b.3836955/k.BEC6/Home.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Marriage-Married-Healthier-Financially/dp/0767906322/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300153913&sr=8-1

http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/effects_of_ssm.html

Monday, March 14, 2011 - 11:43 PM EDT

Name: "boogerjames"

As a father, I now have to shun my son.

http://static.divbyzero.nl/facepalm/doublefacepalm.jpg 

Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 12:45 AM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

Yeah you won't be laughing when you have a child that disappoints you.

Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 7:21 PM EDT

Name: "anonymous"

i am a socialist who lives in iceland and i can attest to the fact that the nordic countries are not "shitholes" they are in fact the most successful countries on earth.  no one in iceland goes bankrupt from education or dies from lack of health care, we use almost all renewable energy for our power and were more developed technologically than the usa so your information is completely false "themisesking"

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 6:39 PM EDT

Name: "Roy F"

You're all wasting your time arguing with TheMisesKing.  Libertarians are the most insane religious fundamentalists around (and many or most of them are atheists).  All evidence against their ideology will be ignored.  If he's decided that the Scandinavian countries are "shitholes", it wouldn't matter if you dragged him on a plane over there and pried his eyes open with toothpicks.  In case somewhere in this long thread he has spouted the standard right wing lie that those countries have high suicide rates, they are about the same as in America, despite their bleak climate.

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:13 PM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

To Iceland person, wake up.  Your small little backwards third world country has no standing army whatsoever, you're completely reliant on the big USA to defend your insignificant asses.  You guys got easily occupied by the British and you wouldn't stand a chance against Mexico.  Technologically advanced?  Please, you guys probably are still living in huts eating Yak butter or whatever.  You guys have less than a million people, that's pathetic!  And worse of all, your harboring those Wikileaks terrorist.

For RoyF, no no no, I'm not really that much of a libertarian, I'm more for Reaganomics, but I find a lot of inspiration in Mises, and so I associate very much with the community based around him.  Yes a lot of libertarians are atheist and also pro gay and all that nonsense, it's a serious problem for good conservatives like me.

Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 1:22 AM EDT

Name: "TheMisesKing"

Oh and Iceland's banking sector just collapsed and your prime minister is a lesbian.  Not the best place to live.

Monday, March 28, 2011 - 4:52 PM EDT

Name: "anonymous"

To "TheMisesKing": WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID???!!!!

Please, everybody ignore this fool and his backwards dogma, maybe if we ignore him he won't keep posting his corporate-religious propaganda!

Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 11:11 PM EST

Name: "Pamela Dickerson"

 We know that America is experiencing an economy crisis but we do still believe and any country who is struggles economy issue will definitely overcome it as long we are united to fix the issue.get your ex back

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